Scythed Chariots- Real or a Western Fantasy?

[Storm Wolf]

Or to fight the war from 200 years ago!   

Tru-dat!

[Easy E]

@Fierce Kitty- do you have more info on those Scythes found in China?  My google-fu was weak on that subject.

[JW Boots]

It’s the weekend, little householding stuff to do, and my thoughts wander off… and it just occurred to me that opening lanes for scythed chariots to pass through may well be the worst of all ideas… Yes, horses don’t want to run into solid blocks of human beings with pointy sticks. And yes, the horses will thus go for the gap. But… I don’t see how they will do so and take into account that the chariot they are pulling is having some long, nasty, and sharp scythes prolonging to either side… in other words, the men lining the lanes may well have their legs chopped off…

[ithoriel]

It’s the weekend, little householding stuff to do, and my thoughts wander off… and it just occurred to me that opening lanes for scythed chariots to pass through may well be the worst of all ideas… Yes, horses don’t want to run into solid blocks of human beings with pointy sticks. And yes, the horses will thus go for the gap. But… I don’t see how they will do so and take into account that the chariot they are pulling is having some long, nasty, and sharp scythes prolonging to either side… in other words, the men lining the lanes may well have their legs chopped off…

If you were going to open lanes I suspect you'd take that into account. Horses are probably going to do their damnedest to avoid the nasty shouty men with the pointy things so would surely steer as near to centre of the lane as possible. So, open lanes wide enough for both the horses and the chariot.

Also, let's face it, most generals would accept a few casualties to blunt the effect of the scythed chariots.

[FierceKitty]

@Fierce Kitty- do you have more info on those Scythes found in China?  My google-fu was weak on that subject.

PM sent.

[Aethelflaeda was framed]

I always assumed scythed chariots to be akin to the fins on a ‘55 Chevy painted with red flames so it goes faster.   A morale building tool while the real weapons were the lances, bows and javelins of the riders.  Occasionally the scythe might catch someone who got unlucky, but the massed suicide ride straight into or dragged and swerving along the front of a phalanx would be mostly viewed as a waste of horses.  I suppose, like fire ships in naval combat, some unlucky buggers got roped into thinking this was a good idea…”Lt. Willy, ya got got caught in the tents drinking all the Emperor’s best wine without permission…guess where you get to fight tomorrow!”

[ithoriel]

The main intent with scythed chariots does not seem to have been to inflict casualties but to cause enemy troops to scatter to avoid casualties. Disrupting ranks to allow other troops to catch them at a disadvantage.

One of the few accounts of scythed chariots succeeding

"The soldiers had got into the habit of collecting their supplies carelessly and without taking precautions. There was one occasion when , with 2 scythed chariots and about 400 cavalry, came on them when they were scattered all over the plain. When the Greeks saw him bearing down on them, they ran to join up with each other, about 700 altogether; but Pharnabazus did not waste time. Putting the chariots in front, and following behind them himself with the cavalry, he ordered a charge. The chariots dashing into the Greek ranks, broke up their close formation, and the cavalry soon cut down about a hundred men. The rest fled and took refuge with Agesilaus, who happened to be close at hand with the hoplites."

The chariots break up the formation but the cavalry do the killing.

The problem was that scythed chariot charges were rarely, if ever, followed up closely enough for the disruption they caused to be properly exploited.

[Aethelflaeda was framed]

Kind of like fireships.

[ithoriel]

Kind of like fireships.

Except that fireships often worked! 

[Easy E]

Yes, what is interesting to me about that passage from Xenophon to me is:

1. The targets of the attack are clearly not heavy infantry.  They are described as Greeks, but not even as soldiers.  It is possible that they were just camp followers or slaves that were foraging across the plains for food. 

2. Most wargames use the Scythed Chariots as a "Shock" weapon in units.  However, it is clear that they are a disruption or suppression weapon and not used in large units.   

3. The killing is not done by the chariots, but the following cavalry, most likely as the Greeks scattered.  Therefore, in wargames the Scythed Chariot should cause disruption or a formation change rather than actual damage.       

Edit: 4. It also follows the "standard trope" of showing the effectiveness against non-Heavy infantry opponents.