How common with surcoats be in England around 1130

[Keeper Nilbog]

Currently working towards a small force for the Anarchy in England, and wondering about the Victrix Medieval models that are being currently produced (or will be shortly) as suitable models.
Due to the time period, which is after the 1st Crusade (and likely 2nd or even 3rd - can't remember my dates), would knights start/continue to wear surcoats around this period.

I have (currently) predominantly "Norman" cavalry, which fit, but don't have "full chain" which was coming into major use at that time.

I know it's an open ended question (whatever you wish), and I'm likely to "mix and match" Norman and Early Medieval models eventually. Just wanted to know if there was any historical evidence around this - I can't find any direct references.

[MaleGriffin]

You can search for Effigy 1130, and you'll find your answer. IIRC, tabards/surcoats were a popular way to display heraldry.

[Thew2]

I'm also no expert, but I think surcoats in Western Europe are more common from the early c13th.  If you look at the knights illustrated in The Morgan Leaf of the Winchester Bible (1150-1175) they're in mail, many with mailed legs as you note, but with no surcoat.

[MaleGriffin]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surcoat

[carlos marighela]

I think it really is more of a very late 12th C, early 13th C thing. Early 12th C not so much, if at all. Khurasan do a range in 28mm that would probably work well for what you want, I've been eyeing them for ages for use in the Anglo/Norman invasion of Ireland, which is about forty years on from your chosen date. They are in full length mail and you could mix them with your earlier Normans.

https://khurasanminiatures.tripod.com/28mm-late-12th-century.html

[olyreed]

Footsore miniatures are looking to release Anarchy miniatures at some point but not sure how far down the release schedule they are. I picked up a couple of their free monthly miniatures a year or so ago that was for the Anarchy

[Dice Roller]

Yup, I'm another one who agrees - no surcoats until late 12th century at the very best.
Even the great seal of King Richard 1st of England shows him without a surcoat:

[Rochejaquelein]

You would only start seeing surcoats after the Anarchy and even then, you can still see plenty of knights without them during the first quarter of the 13th century.
This is from 1160-1180
https://manuscriptminiatures.com/5759/21561

As someone who would like to do the Anarchy one day (the appeal of gaming what is essentially a mini English Sengoku Jidai...) I'd say you couldn't go wrong with Victrix Normans, especially since they come with heads wearing 12th century curved nasal helmets

[Keeper Nilbog]

Thanks for the replies - all the responses seem to gel with my own research around this - that these became more common around the turn of the 12/13 century.

Norman Knights remain the most reasonable fit, that the chain sleeves would be longer, and of course leggings (especially for the more affluent Knights - old armours would still work).

And no Horse Curtains.

[carlos marighela]

No doubt you ahve seen this:

Battle of Lincoln from the Historia Angolorum. Which is near contemporary.

[Sheikdjerboutiy]

Imo they're very unlikely to have appeared in England before 1150, as we have no evidence for one at an earlier date. However to enter illuminations in 1150 they'd have to have been worn for at least some time, enough to make the illuminator aware of them. Nonetheless i'd be cautious about using them for anything other than the very end of the Anarchy, around ~1145-53, and to be sparing with any use. They're more common after 1180. You do see seals both with and without surcoats in the late 12th and early 13th.c (e.g. Henry II of Champagne doesn't have one, but his brother Theobald III does), so it is possible that the presence of one on a seal doesnt neccessarily indicate if the noble in question actually wore one, and it was likely a matter of personal preference or fashion to some extent.

[bluewillow]

All of the seals of the period would say no.

Heraldry is very early so bends, chevrons, simple plants, stars, and animals.

Look at Geoffroi Plantagenet, Raoul de Fougeres, Geoffroi de Mayenne Guilliaume de Harcourt etc for examples

Cheers
Matt

[rampantlion]

I am not an expert either but I think very end of the 12th century before surcoats were around. 

[HerbertTarkel]

Excellent source, Carlos - it’s hard to find near-contemporary sources, but that’s a solid one.

I’m also looking forward to the new Victrix models, and haven’t picked a purpose for them yet.

[Diablo Jon]

Conquest games make a set of Medieval Knights in plastic that they claim

  Medieval period. In terms of English kings, that’s King Stephen to King John, 1135 to 1216 (not exactly an era of peace in English history !) This period covers numerous was between England (the Angevin Empire) and France, plenty of inter-baronial squabbling and feuding, and the Second and Third Crusades. The set is also fabulous if you want to re-create some of the golden era Hollywood costume dramas, as well – Ivanhoe, Robin Hood, and anything with Richard the Lionheart in.

I think they are probably more king John than king Stephen but just throwing another option your way.