Charlie's terrain boards (river boards with backdrop painting, July 19-20)

[Charlie_]

I've made modular terrain boards before, and have been very happy with some aspects of them, not so much with others. Now I've moved into a new wargaming space with room for a bigger table, I have to decide whether to stick my old boards and make new ones in the same style, or chuck them, call them a learning experience, and start from scratch.

I'm thinking I'll go for the latter, mainly because I want to try different colours for ground textures.

So, shall I construct them the same way as the old ones or do it differently?

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I have both 'plain' boards and boards with recessed features (rivers, ditches, etc).

- For the plain boards, I use 9mm MDF squares (600x600mm) with 20mm thick stripwood battens beneath.
- For the river boards, I use 20mm thick craftfoam on top of a 9mm MDF board.

The reason for the 20mm battens is of course to match them in height to the river boards, and presumably they help prevent any warping.

For the river boards, I also use the 20mm stripwood to make a 'frame' around the edge into which the cut down craftfoam tile goes - this was originally intended to make the edges good and durable, but I've also just realised it's necessary as the MDF boards I have cut for me at B&Q can never be relied upon to be 600x600 exactly. They will also be out by 1mm it seems, so just putting the craftfoam tiles on top of the MDF board will never match up perfectly.

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I've now moved into the new wargaming garage and built the table on to which these terrain boards will go. They have been unused for several years, stored haphazardly. I also have some 2ft x 4ft ones, but they have warped out of shape - they were never perfect, but being stored leaning against a wall has now made them unusable.

Trying out the 2ftx2ft boards now, I can say the 'plain' boards are still a complete success. They are solid, durable, but not too heavy, and have not warped at all.

The river boards I'm not happy with though. I like as flush and seamless a join between terrain tiles as it possible, and this requires the 29mm thick edges of these boards to be made perfectly square. I have never quite managed to achieve this. Trying them out now, they ALL seem to have warped somehow, so they can be rocked back and forth. Remember, this is 9mm MDF sheet, with a 20mm wooden frame screwed on top, and a 560x560mm craftfoam tile fixed within the frame. All the filler, glue and paint on top are contacting the stripwood frame and the craftfoam, not the MDF.

So perhaps time to try a different approach?

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I am considering what I suppose is the 'traditional' method, which is just to use foam tiles. So with 20mm thick tiles, I would have two stuck together for a total 40mm thickness, and the river tiles would have the rivers, ditches etc cut out of the top tile.

I am concerned though about how durable they will be. Will the edges be chipping as soon as I use them?

Also, if I have a river feature of any reasonable width, will the tile be strong enough? It will only be 20mm thick foam where the river is, will it bend during handling and crack the carefully applied paint and varnish on the river?

I could go for 25mm thick foam, for a total 50mm deep board. This will make the river tiles a bit stronger (and the river banks themselves will become taller). Or perhaps a 20mm on top of a 25mm.

I can't just put craftfoam on top of MDF, as I'll never get them to match up - it will always be out by about a mm I reckon. That's why I had the stripwood edges, but then getting them nice and square for a seamless join was very hard.

I could also use my preferred MDF construction for the plain tiles, and just use the double layers of craftfoam on the river tiles. They will become heavier though - to get them to a 40mm height (rather than the 29mm my current ones are) I'll need to use 12mm MDF (rather than 9mm) with 38mm stripwood battens.

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I don't know if that all made sense, perhaps it would be clearer with pictures?

But I'm looking for any sort of advice for construction methods!

In particular, if you've got experience with just using craftfoam for your terrain boards, I'd like to hear how durable they are, how resistant to chipping at the edges... and do the river tiles bend?

Or any thought son how my river boards have warped, but my plain ones haven't?

[Codsticker]

This past summer I completed a large set of boards, my first such attempt. Although I never got around to posting them on LAF there are a couple of blog entries about it here and here. I found the same as you, my 2x4 panels warped a bit but my 2x2 panels did no. Most are 1" foam mounted on 1/4" MDF, but the two that warped the most were mounted on plywood, not MDF. I think you are right to use battens to help keep them rigid and square. The edges of the foam are not particularly hardy, even when stiffened with white glue. The other thing I am going to next tome I make some panels is I am going to let them sit a good long time under weight, a week or two, while the glues sets and cures to reduce warping

[Charlie_]

This past summer I completed a large set of boards, my first such attempt. Although I never got around to posting them on LAF there are a couple of blog entries about it here and here. I found the same as you, my 2x4 panels warped a bit but my 2x2 panels did no. Most are 1" foam mounted on 1/4" MDF, but the two that warped the most were mounted on plywood, not MDF. I think you are right to use battens to help keep them rigid and square. The edges of the foam are not particularly hardy, even when stiffened with white glue. The other thing I am going to next tome I make some panels is I am going to let them sit a good long time under weight, a week or two, while the glues sets and cures to reduce warping

Those boards look great, and you've done a great job of hiding the joins with hedgerows and such.

I think you're right, foam edges won't be very hardy...

I've spent a long time searching for other threads on this subject, there's quite a lot over on TMP.... and there's such conflicting answers to the best way to do it! Some people will swear that MDF with battens will completely prevent warping, and then you find someone who claims that ANY form of board will ALWAYS warp, and the ONLY way to do it is with just foam.

I'm thinking now I might make new boards using the same techniques I used before, but upgrading form 9mm to 12mm MDF. I could also make the battens 25mm rather than 20mm, and get 25mm thick foam to match. I wonder what's more important, a thicker base board or thicker battens?

I'll be able to do a better job this time I hope. Rather than making them one at a time in a very cramped flat, I've got a dedicated space (gararge) to do this in now, so I can make several all in one go, making sure they all align nicely... I'll also be using better tools and techniques.... And I definitely think I will do as you say, let them sit under some very heavy weights for a week....

I'm still keen to hear what anyone else has to say on this subject, any tips or personal experiences to share!!!

[Charlie_]

Here's some pics I took of my current boards....

On this setup, the two with ditches nearer the camera are the full thing with foam within a wood frame on an mdf board... the other six 'plain' boards are just mdf on top of a frame (including the ones with the pathway and the field).



This is a join between two 'plain' boards - really pleased with it, very minimal gap.



And this is the problematic join between the two ditch boards. I realise now that it might not be that I didn't make the edges square enough, but rather all my boards with such recessed features have strangely warped up in both directions, hence why there is a much larger gap.



I can put folded up cardboard shims in to raise the outer corners and push the opposite ones down, but it's not ideal.



And this one shows the construction of my plain boards alongside the ditch boards. The frame is 10mm in from the edge, meaning it's just the 9mm of MDF which has to contact its neighbour, which helps with the minimal gap.

[Codsticker]

... ANY form of board will ALWAYS warp, and the ONLY way to do it is with just foam.

My only comment on this is that I have 2x2 panel I did as a one off project that is just foam, no MDF base, and it has warped a little. The 2x2 panels I did on MDF sat for a looong time before I finished them with sand and flock and they haven't warped at all.

I think 1x2 (30mm by 60mm() battens are the way to go for maximum rigidity. My only issue with that is I would have to rebuild my storage rack to accommodate the added height of the battens .

[modelwarrior]

Never had a problem with mdf warping. My terrain boards have 6mm mdf on the bottom.

[Charlie_]

Never had a problem with mdf warping. My terrain boards have 6mm mdf on the bottom.

Yep that's the construction method I use.... What size are your battens then?

It's very strange that the plain MDF +  battens boards have stayed true, and it's the ones with the foam layer inside the batten frame that have all warped in the same way. None of the paint or glue touched the MDF base in these cases.

[modelwarrior]

Yep that's the construction method I use.... What size are your battens then?

It's very strange that the plain MDF +  battens boards have stayed true, and it's the ones with the foam layer inside the batten frame that have all warped in the same way. None of the paint or glue touched the MDF base in these cases.

2cm x 2cm battens,screwed and glued to mdf. 3 screws per batten.

[Mammoth miniatures]

The issue you're facing is that no matter what, MDF is a thirsty material the drinks up moisture like an angry drunk at an empty bar.
You could use a heavier grade of marine plywood which would certainly warp far less, But Personally I'd just switch to using acrylic or some other thick plastic. 5mm acrylic is solid as hell and won't warp in the heat (unless your house is on fire).

[modelwarrior]

So I am now wondering if I am just lucky or am I the only person screwing the mdf down as well ? Also where are these boards being stored ? Mine are stored in the house.

[Daeothar]

For years, I've worked with 120x60cm modular boards. I make them from 4mm MDF and foam. However, to get them to be exactly square in 3 dimensions is ridiculously hard. Ideally, everything fits perfectly, but there are always gaps.

I had 3cm strips of the same 4mm MDF cut at a local DIY store, but they can't cut straight to save their lives (they have a disclaimer next to the csawing/cutting department stating this, so I can't even complain). So I regularly end up with strips that are 31mm on one end and 29mm on the other. And let's not even mention the 122x61cm boards that need to be trimmed down to 120x60...

So a lot of rework is required at home, and with no table saw, this is a challenge to put it mildly.

I have made a jig, so I can put down 12x12mm wooden slats at exactly 4mm from the edges. I glue them down and use brad nails to secure them too. After that, I put on the 30mm(ish) MDF strips, butting them against the wooden braces, glueing and nailing them down as well.

After squaring the corners, I then put in a 30mm thick sheet of insulation foam. Of course those are also 122x61cm and have a tongue and groove, which needs to be removed, obviously. I then cut out space for the wooden supports and glue the foam sheets down into the module.

But because this is never perfect, I then use wall filler to fill and smooth out the gaps between the foam and the MDF sides, and I use wood filler for any gaps between the bottom and the sides. This gets then sanded smooth.

And after all that, I can then texture, shape and paint them. I do three for each environment; 3 desert, 3 temperate/grass, 3 snow, 3 urban, etc.

But here's the kicker; the wooden slats/rods I use are never perfectly straight; it's cheap pine, and they often have quite a bit of twist in them, creating not quite square and/or straight side walls, and I already mentioned the less than accurate cutting at the DIY store.

So none of my modules actually fit seamlessly together, even though I try my darnest to make it so and there are always some unsightly gaps between modules when they're on the table.

Alternatively, I could use hard woods for the support slats and let the MDF be cut professionally at micrometer accuracy, but this would drive the price of the modules up by a factor 4 or 5!

But I've recently stumbled upon a possible solution that, while more expensive than my DIY MDF work so far, is still cheaper than the more exact cutting route. And additionally, it's a lot less labour intensive and with a lot less room for error:

Ikea lagkapten tabletops!

The dimensions are 120x60x3,4cm; exactly the sizes of my own modules! And being factory made, they're always perfectly square. The materials are typical Ikea; MDF/fibreboard surfaces, with a honeycombed cardboard interior. It's a simple case of cutting off the top surface and removing the cardboard insides, to be replaced by a foam sheet of 30mm.

The fitting, filling and texturing should be the same from there.

Mind; I have not tried this yet, and I will do one test module first, to see if the process is as easy and the end result as precise as I am hoping, but it's looking really promissing to say the least

[Charlie_]

So I am now wondering if I am just lucky or am I the only person screwing the mdf down as well ? Also where are these boards being stored ? Mine are stored in the house.

Yes I do screw it down as well.

Alternatively, I could use hard woods for the support slats and let the MDF be cut professionally at micrometer accuracy, but this would drive the price of the modules up by a factor 4 or 5!

I had a look online for precut MDF and briefly thought, 'wait this isn't expensive at all!' but then realised I had entered measurements of 60mm rather than 60cm. So yeah a 600x600mm board is about £17. It would be tempting IF I was only getting 6 boards say, but I plan to have an ever increasing collection of tiles so can't really justify that cost to get them cut perfectly! I think I can cope with some of them being a mm out, they are still square and tile together fine.
I might look into the cost of hardwood battens rather than cheap softwood, wonder if it would make much difference?

But I've recently stumbled upon a possible solution that, while more expensive than my DIY MDF work so far, is still cheaper than the more exact cutting route. And additionally, it's a lot less labour intensive and with a lot less room for error:

Ikea lagkapten tabletops!

The dimensions are 120x60x3,4cm; exactly the sizes of my own modules! And being factory made, they're always perfectly square. The materials are typical Ikea; MDF/fibreboard surfaces, with a honeycombed cardboard interior. It's a simple case of cutting off the top surface and removing the cardboard insides, to be replaced by a foam sheet of 30mm.

The fitting, filling and texturing should be the same from there.

Mind; I have not tried this yet, and I will do one test module first, to see if the process is as easy and the end result as precise as I am hoping, but it's looking really promissing to say the least

That does look like a pretty cool idea, I'd be very interested to see how it works out. It won't quite work for me though, as I'm wanting 2ft x 2ft tiles mostly.

[Belgian]

Saw somebody use these, https://www.ikea.com/nl/nl/p/lack-tafeltje-wit-30449908/ well only the tabletops. Interesting idea and quite modular.

[Daeothar]

Many years ago I bought those myself at a discount, only €3,- a piece I believe. I wanted some Bushido boards, which is played on 60x60cm.

And I never bothered to look at the measurements for some reason

Turns out the small Lack tables measure 50cm square, so they were too small for my purpose. I briefly considered glueing the legs to the sides and cutting off the excess, but came to the conclusion that would be both impractical and defeating the purpose of being easy, so I gave them away.

Now if one were starting out and had not decided on a module size, they might still work...

[Captain Blood]

I've got quite a collection of both - MDF boards and styrofoam slabs in various sizes for different theatres.
To be honest, I've never used any sort of bracing or framing, and I've never had a single problem with warping.
Some of my 20 or so MDF boards are now almost 30 years old, and they're still flat as a pancake. Possibly because I store them flat, in a stack, so they never get a chance to bend.

The styrene slabs have much integral terrain - hills, rivers, crevasses, wadis, etc - modelled into them and onto them.
Some of these terrain slabs I store flat, on top of each other, in large boxes with spacers popped on the four corners of each board to create the necessary headroom to keep them apart from the slab above / below. Some of them I store on their sides, on shelves, or resting against walls. Again, despite this, and the fact that some of these slabs are now 15+ years old, I've never had any problem with warping. They're 40mm or 50mm thick, so have a lot of solid integrity!

I prefer the dioramic look of the sculpted styrofoam boards, but obviously with all their inbuilt features, they're a lot less flexible for day-to-day wargames, whereas the flat, surface textured MDF boards (some of which do have roadways etc on them) are endlessly flexible with the addition of hills, rivers, buildings, woods and so on. So most of the time I play wargames on the MDF boards.

In terms of advice, all I can offer is: if you can find / make the space, store your terrain boards flat. They shouldn't warp, and you can save a lot of effort on unnecessary carpentry framing which just spoils the look of the thing IMHO.