Renaissance Cavalry from Wargames Atlantic - disappointing

[Maxromek]

I was excited to receive my Renaissance cavalry box, but now that I put some together, I'm no longer happy at all. There is a range of small issues, that all add up to make my experience with putting them together and the final miniatures disappointing and frustrating.

Issue 1: legs
The legs are incredibly spread out, making the minis look very silly. It's probably the most minor of my issues, but it's still annoying.

Issue 2: torsos
Torsos are too wide. The armour does not resemble actual full plate in shape, and combined with flat arm joints and weird pauldrons (see below) gives an overall impression of hulking, broad-shouldered pinheads (heads are another issue, see below). This is especially noticeable on the backs (see photos).

Issue 3: heads
I find it incredibly disappointing when plastics manufacturers reuse their assets, in this case the heads. These are mostly rehashes from the Conquistadors infantry set plus 3 burgonets and 2 close helmets. The close helmets are weirdly shaped, but not terrible. The lack of fancier styled morions or proper comb burgonets is telling.

Issue 4: neck joints
Specifically for the burgonets with gorgets, these do not fit the bodies without shaving off the neck joint on the torso. I've attached some photos of what I mean below. Similarly, if you just attach any of the non-gorgeted heads to the body with the ruff, the neck is going to look far too long, so you have to shave off the neck on the head. Just more and more faff.

Issue 5: left arms
Inexplicably, there are only 12 armoured left arms, of which there are only 4 that hold nothing (or "hold the reins"). 4 other hold pistols and 4 are supposed to have shields. The 4 shielded ones are useless for the vast majority of actual historical Renaissance cavalry, as none of them carried shields. The 4 with pistols would have worked if we also had right handed arms with nothing, to hold the reigns. But there aren't any. The best you can do is have a model with sword and pistol or maybe 2 pistols, but that seems more a provenance of Warhammer than actual historical facts (I tried finding any reference to reiters or cuirassiers firing both of their pistols at once or even holding two but I found nothing, I'm welcome to be corrected though). This meant I ended up performing surgery and sticking different cut-up half-arms together to achieve a sensible look. It's very telling that the model photos on the back have figures with mixed armoured/unarmoured arms - a thing totally ahistorical for the period. Add to that that all the pistol arms are full armoured... Just a massive waste

Issue 6: pauldrons
They just look wrong, there is very little overlap onto the cuirass, which gives them a "space Marines" look.

Overall, I'm just very mad with this set. It's trying to be too many things and in the process it ends up being none of them. Unironically, I think they are best suited for Empire Pistoliers for Warhammer Fantasy, which is not what I wanted them for.

[BeneathALeadMountain]

Max I feel your pain/disappointment I’ve recently had couple of projects I was excited about stall badly due to bad products/experiences (I admit it’s probably at least partly due to my ocd/artistic temperament  ).

The splits stance seems to be standard for plastic riders by most brands - my fireforge northmen cavalry are ok though (admittedly I don’t have a huge amount of cavalry). The worst plastic kit I’ve experienced were the PSC Steyr cars - utter torture.

Andrew
BeneathALeadMountain

[Vis Bellica]

Haven't they fixed the build on the Steyrs yet?

Here was my experience with them:

https://www.vislardica.com/blog/2019/4/4/psc-steyr-heavy-cars-in-15mm?rq=steyr

(apologies for the mild hijack of the thread!)

[BeneathALeadMountain]

Vis - I hope so but having made one box I haven’t even considered buying more. I love PSC but that kit nearly pushed me over the edge. Your description of the build process seems to be familiar 

Andrew
BeneathALeadMountain

[Leigh Metford]

Having myself one of these sets on order I share your disappointment, Maxromek - but perhaps the figures can be salvaged with a little work.

To ameliorate the 'space marines' effect, I think the following fix might work: brush a coat of liquid polystyrene glue onto the attachment surface of the arm pieces, leaving the upper edge (i.e. the edge of the pauldron) glue-free, then scrape away the glue-coated plastic with a craft knife; repeat a few times. This should leave the upper edge of the pauldron projecting enough that it will overlap the shoulder to some extent, and reduce the overall width of the torso and arms combination. I suppose that if you have the patience and time you could keep repeating the process to the point where the figures look as they should have if they'd been properly sculpted.  Of course, purchasers shouldn't have to do this, but if it results in usable figures it's probably worth the effort. 

I really can't understand why unarmoured arms were included in a set of armoured cavalry, especially as it left no room on the sprue for the armoured left arms that should have been there; it makes no sense whatsoever. I guess the only way to make up the shortfall is to remove pistols from those armoured left arms that have them.

[Maxromek]

I've had enough work so far with chopping arms into pieces and regluing them to get more armoured left arms to bother with the bulky shoulders. I think I have also accepted that they will be part of my Warhammer Estalian army rather than anything Renaissance.

The reason for the awkward numbering and choice of pieces seems to be the fact that there was initially going to be just a single "Conquistador cavalry" set with both unarmoured and armoured bodies and they decided to split it into two. What is now the Conquistador cavalry set is fine, comparable to their infantry, but this Renaissance cavalry ended up with stuff tacked onto it and not enough things taken out, possibly because the split occured late in production. Either way, you cannot make 12 demi lancers or 12 Pistoliers because unless you give some of them pistols or shields in their left hands, which is absolutely useless.

[Inkpaduta]

I have never and will never buy any plastic figures.
Lead rocks! Plus, I HATE putting figures together.

[Leigh Metford]

Although past WA releases have had their problems, they haven't usually been as big a fail as this one, Inkpaduta - at least from an historical wargamer perspective.

Is that too harsh a judgement? I don't think so, given the amount of extra work required to render the figures usable to we historical wargamers. I mean really: EIGHT unarmoured arms on an ARMOURED cavalry sprue!

It's obvious where WA's market priorities lie. Indeed, Hudson Adams himself has publicly expressed regret that he ever got into the historical figure manufacturing business. He said he only proceeded with it because he'd made a public promise to do so; he'd much rather be catering entirely to the fantasy and sci-fi markets. So historical gamers' need for historical fidelity in their figures comes a distant second to WA's desire to appeal to the fantasy and sci-fi crowd, with the sort of results we've seen. and can perhaps expect to see more of. 

Contrast this attitude with that of the Perrys, who might not always achieve 100% historical accuracy, but who at least make a serious effort to do so - and that disciplined approach hasn't impacted the popularity of their medieval figures with fantasy gamers at all.     

[Leigh Metford]

Another thought on an easier fix for the 'space marines' effect: file or sand down the gluing surface on the bodies. At least the overall width would decrease.

[carlos marighela]

It's obvious where WA's market priorities lie. Indeed, Hudson Adams himself has publicly expressed regret that he ever got into the historical figure manufacturing business. He said he only proceeded with it because he'd made a public promise to do so; he'd much rather be catering entirely to the fantasy and sci-fi markets. So historical gamers' need for historical fidelity in their figures comes a distant second to WA's desire to appeal to the fantasy and sci-fi crowd, with the sort of results we've seen. and can perhaps expect to see more of. 
 

I suspect it's a bit simpler than that. They are pretty lazy when it comes to research and the design of their figures has never been that great. The former might be informed by a preference for space wizards and magical elves but if you are going to commit to a market, particularly a competitive one. it's probably best to make a serious effort.

The engineering of their figures isn't great. Shoulders seem to be consistent issue for them. Excusable for initial releases, everyone must learn their craft at some point but if you keep doing the same or similar it gets old quickly.

Add to that their rather whimsical release schedules and bizarre pre-funding ponzi scheme and they are really quite an odd enterprise.

I have a few of their boxes. To date I've mostly used them as parts sources. Quality wise I'd rate them as adequate. That said, they do some figures that nobody else does and that's something to be welcomed. If you had a straight up choice between say a Perry or Victrix placcy figure vs one of WA's I doubt too many people would choose WA.

[Maxromek]

Another thought on an easier fix for the 'space marines' effect: file or sand down the gluing surface on the bodies. At least the overall width would decrease.

Unfortunately, that won't quite work because of the design of the top part of the cuirass, which has a bolted-on plate (the historical provenance of which is still unknown to me).

Your discussion about their wanting to do sff and doing poor historical research is spot on. Look no further than their website or their Facebook group - loads of people saying they will be buying the heavy cavalry specifically to use it for Warhammer. The quality of detail and moulding is pretty good, but some of their sets are really poorly designed and researched. Look at the Aztecs set, in which apparently every one of them was a gym-going hulk. With that release, I'm definitely pausing my support for the company.

[anevilgiraffe]

Proportion wise they are more GW than Perry anyway.

[Leigh Metford]

Having had a closer look at the sprue images on Anton's somewhat prematurely glowing review of the heavy cavalry set, I might be able to offer some assistance to those who, like me, have one on order, and those who plan to buy one or more sets despite the problems exposed here. 

On the main sprue, for the three riders* there are eighteen armoured arms, of which three are left arms. There are also two unarmoured rein-holding left arms.

One of the three armoured left arms can be used as is, being weapon-free and clearly intended to hold a set of reins. The next wields a pistol. Remove the hand and replace it with a hand from one of the two unarmoured left arms. The third armoured left arm is designed to have a shield attached to it, so the forearm is flat on the exposed side. You'll need to cut off the forearm at the elbow and replace it with one from one of the armoured right arms you won't be using, and cut the hand and weapon off the latter. Finally, glue the hand from the other unarmoured left arm to it.

*There four bodies but only three horses in the set. One of the bodies is wearing a ruff, which I've read was worn only by civilians, and of course was a fashion trend of the later 16th century; however, it also appears to wearing a sash, so you might want to use it for command figures and file away the ruff. 

[Mammoth miniatures]

I suspect it's a bit simpler than that. They are pretty lazy when it comes to research and the design of their figures has never been that great. The former might be informed by a preference for space wizards and magical elves but if you are going to commit to a market, particularly a competitive one. it's probably best to make a serious effort.

The engineering of their figures isn't great. Shoulders seem to be consistent issue for them. Excusable for initial releases, everyone must learn their craft at some point but if you keep doing the same or similar it gets old quickly.

Add to that their rather whimsical release schedules and bizarre pre-funding ponzi scheme and they are really quite an odd enterprise.

All of this is exactly the same as the ill fated wargames factory. Wargames Atlantic insist they are not at all connected to wargames factory but at every step they make the exact same choices. Even the branding looks the same to me.  Same historical periods chosen for their initial release, the same stylistic choices in their figures, the same community driven release order pre order thing.
I still find it impossible to believe that they're not the same company, but they say they aren't so I guess it's just a bizarre cosmic coincidence.

[Maxromek]

Having had a closer look at the sprue images on Anton's somewhat prematurely glowing review of the heavy cavalry set, I might be able to offer some assistance to those who, like me, have one on order, and those who plan to buy one or more sets despite the problems exposed here. 

On the main sprue, for the three riders* there are eighteen armoured arms, of which three are left arms. There are also two unarmoured rein-holding left arms.

One of the three armoured left arms can be used as is, being weapon-free and clearly intended to hold a set of reins. The next wields a pistol. Remove the hand and replace it with a hand from one of the two unarmoured left arms. The third armoured left arm is designed to have a shield attached to it, so the forearm is flat on the exposed side. You'll need to cut off the forearm at the elbow and replace it with one from one of the armoured right arms you won't be using, and cut the hand and weapon off the latter. Finally, glue the hand from the other unarmoured left arm to it.

*There four bodies but only three horses in the set. One of the bodies is wearing a ruff, which I've read was worn only by civilians, and of course was a fashion trend of the later 16th century; however, it also appears to wearing a sash, so you might want to use it for command figures and file away the ruff.

That's pretty much what I'm doing now, chopping and gluing things together. I'm committed now to make the best out of them at least in the arms department

@Mammoth miniatures

Do you know if there is any overlap in people who are running the companies? I see what you mean about the similarities in their operations, but I find their miniatures very different stylistically.