DOG FIGHT

[gweirda]

Should the roll for using a Long Burst be made before or after combat takes place?...why shouldn't the gun fire the bullets first when using a long burst...?...a gun rarely jams or fails to function before a round is fired.

Off-the-cuff first thoughts:

How about simultaneously with the firing roll?
I think your 1/3 chance of a jam is a tad high, but that's just personal opinion, so using that framework:

If making a medium or long burst, roll a 'jam die' with the firing die: A roll of '1' means only a medium burst is made (which has no effect/jam for a gun firing a medium burst) and jams a gun making a long burst after allowing a medium burst to be landed, and a result of '6' means only a short burst is made and jams both medium and long burst-firing guns after allowing a short burst to be landed.

[Dubar]

That sounds like a great idea!!!  Need to think about how to word it so give me a few to think about it!

[Dubar]

OK, here's what I came up with.  Does this sound like what you're talking about?:

2. Roll 1D6 to Shoot. If firing a Medium or Long Burst, also roll a ?BURST? die (use a different size or color) at the same time. (Not used if a Short Burst was chosen)

   If ?BURST? die = 1 and Long Burst was chosen, gun(s) jam. No effect if Medium Burst used

   If ?BURST? die = 6 with either Medium or Long Burst chosen, only a Short burst was made before gun(s) jam.

If Gun(s) jam:
      PILOT:      Fuselage-Mounted gun(s)   Mark with Black Marker
               Wing-Mounted gun(s)           Mark with Blue Marker
      OBSERVER:                  Mark with White Marker

[gweirda]

Does this sound like what you're talking about?

Mostly - I included medium burst allowed when long burst jams on a '1':

2. Roll 1D6 to Shoot. If firing a Medium or Long Burst, also roll a ?BURST? die (use a different size or color) at the same time. (Not used if a Short Burst was chosen)

   If ?BURST? die = 1 and Long Burst was chosen, only a Medium burst was made before gun(s) jam. No effect if Medium Burst used

   If ?BURST? die = 6 with either Medium or Long Burst chosen, only a Short burst was made before gun(s) jam.

[Dubar]

Got it. I was thinking that just didn't say it.

2. Roll 1D6 to Shoot. If firing a Medium or Long Burst, also roll a ?BURST? die (use a different size or color) at the same time. (Burst die Not used if Short Burst was chosen)
   If ?BURST? die = 1 and Long Burst chosen, only a Medium burst was made before gun(s) jam.    No effect (jam) if Medium burst used.
   If ?BURST? die = 6 with either Medium or Long Burst chosen, only a Short burst was made    before gun(s) jam.
If Gun(s) jam:
      PILOT:      Fuselage-Mounted gun(s)   Mark with Black Marker
               Wing-Mounted gun(s)   Mark with Blue Marker
      OBSERVER:                  Mark with White Marker

So: If a Medium burst is chosen, a Burst die is also rolled.  If result = 1, treat it normally (no jam).  If result =6, a Short burst results and the gun jams.

If a Long burst is chosen, a Burst die is also rolled.  If result = 1, a Medium burst results and the gun jams.  If result = 6, a Short burst results and the gun jams.

Does that cover what you're saying or am I getting confused? 

[gweirda]

If a Medium burst is chosen, a Burst die is also rolled.  If result = 1, treat it normally (no jam).  If result =6, a Short burst results and the gun jams.

If a Long burst is chosen, a Burst die is also rolled.  If result = 1, a Medium burst results and the gun jams.  If result = 6, a Short burst results and the gun jams.

Does that cover what you're saying?

That's it!

[Dubar]

Thanks for the input!

I have revised the rules to include the "new" jamming rule.  Included here is the updated PDF file, only page 3 has changed for those that want to use the new rule.  I made the jamming rule part of the step and renumbered NOTE 3 to NOTE 2 and moved it to the bottom of the page.

[Fitz]

If you want to increase the pernickitiness, you could add a die roll after a "Jam" result to indicate how many rounds were actually fired before the jam occurred, and adjust any damage result accordingly.

It wouldn't be an entirely straightforward exercise though, since volume of fire isn't necessarily the only indicator of the degree of damage inflicted ? a single bullet through the back of the pilot's head will be enough ? so the results table would have to allow for a fair bit of chance.

[Dubar]

LOL! I'm almost afraid of going down that rabbit hole, counting rounds would make the game way too long I think (for me).

[gweirda]

I got the impression that NOTE 1 did just that?  Granted, it's on a scale of seconds rather than bullets (or so I assumed, since I use that method in my game), but that's as granular as one needs?

[Fitz]

It wouldn't need to be that granular. The result could just drop the fire down the burst-length ladder, depending on its severity, to (potentially) no effective fire. After that, the gun(s) would have to be unjammed.

[Dubar]

I'm not sure what made me give an aircraft with only 1 gun 5 "Ammo" boxes and with 2 guns 10, other than I felt I didn't want the capability to shoot all day long without reloading.  I could have made it 6 and 12, or any other number I suppose.  I did do a little research on just how many rounds were carried onboard but if I was the pilot I'd make sure I could carry as much as my plane would allow.

As some of my games have shown, just a short burst can do an enemy in if it kills the pilot with enough sixes rolled!!!

The 1st PDF has been downloaded 50 times! WOOHOO!!!

[gweirda]

I'm not sure what made me give an aircraft with only 1 gun 5 "Ammo" boxes and with 2 guns 10, other than I felt I didn't want the capability to shoot all day long without reloading.  I could have made it 6 and 12, or any other number I suppose.  I did do a little research on just how many rounds were carried onboard but if I was the pilot I'd make sure I could carry as much as my plane would allow.

When it deals with the standard, deck-mounted, belt-fed guns (Vickers/Spandau) ammo supply (usually between 25 and 30 seconds, iirc?) can easily be ignored - though for long-running fights it can play a part in a game.

For clip/drum-fed guns, though (Hotchkiss/Parabellum/Lewis) it plays a huge role in any engagement that lasts more than a few seconds. A DH-2 pilot with a Lewis (4-9 seconds) going up against an Albatros with Spandaus (30 seconds - and two of them!) is certainly thinking about his ammo supply!  Same with the SE5 or Nieuport with a wing-mounted Lewis: When to 'pull the trigger' is not a decision taken lightly, and can inject another level/facet to the game's narrative.

[Dubar]

So true!  I know when playing I am constantly thinking what length burst I should use, especially with single-gun aircraft with only 5 ammo boxes to mark off.

I played a game this morning to see how the revised jamming rule works.

I had a Fokker DR1 and DVIII up against a SPAD XIII and a Nieuport 28, by turn 4 all aircraft had suffered at least 1 jam!!!  I don't think it had as much to do with the new rule as it did with me throwing a lot of ones and sixes.

By turn 4 the DR1 had taken extensive damage and headed home, at the end of turn 4 the DVIII had cleared his jammed guns while the SPAD and Nieuport could not and turned away from the fight to clear their guns in turn 5.  But the DVIII pounced on the SPAD, killing the pilot (more sixes rolled!).

Turn 6, the Nieuport still could not clear the guns and headed home, the DVIII got in several more hits but ran out of ammo letting the Nieuport get away in turn 7.

With only 1 game played using the revised jamming rule, it's too early to have an opinion to keep it, go back to the old rule, or try something else.  I do like it in that the game seems to flow better and go faster as a result of throwing the "Jamming" die at the same time as the "Shooting" die.  I'm going to play several more games using it before I make a decision.  Some of you may want to use either as an alternate method, I may do the same thing.

[Dubar]

I got in a short game yesterday with a SE5a escorting a 1-1/2 Strutter on a mission to photograph trench lines.  Opposing force was an Albatros DII and a Roland DII.

In 11 turns the Strutter managed to take photos of 12 trench "hexes" while taking moderate damage from both German aircraft before the SE5a managed to down the Roland.  With the Germans concentrating on the Strutter it gave the SE5a time to bring down the Roland plus the Strutters observer got in a few good shoots as well.

Additionally, it seemd like every turn one of the Germans was suffering a jam of his guns, it was unbelievable how many ones or sixes I rolled when choosing medium or long bursts, maybe that's a sign to use short bursts more frequently!!!

Results were the Strutter accomplished his mission and returned safely whith the SE5a getting a kill, the Albatros' gun jammed while chasing down the Stutter and headed for home before the SE5a could get in some shots.

I need to get in a few more games before I decide if I like the new "jamming" rule.  Right now it seems like guns jam way more than they should, but then again from what I've read that was definitely a huge problem.