The Stalwart companies ownership getting old?

[FifteensAway]

Glad to see so many positive replies to my query.  Though I am doubtful a significant amount of the 'stalwarts' will survive long - there are only so many companies that can only absorb so many lines of figures, especially lines that have already aged way beyond that 'first year' (not sure if it remains current but once upon a time in marketing there was a 'rule' that 50% of a product's sales occur in its first year of existence).  And I hear more than a hint that a lot of what might remain will be 'passion projects' rather than profit seeking endeavors. 

And if the up and comers can't get hold of vulcanizing equipment that bodes quite ill for the long term manufacture of metal miniatures.

As to the STL world, while I have some 3D printed stuff I've bought pre-printed - and some of it is pretty cool - I think that will be a very different hobby.  And far more ethereal.  A metal miniature might easily last, literally, a thousand years - or some significant multiple.  3D prints might be around based on nuclear half-lives of plastics but I doubt very much they'll remain in worthwhile condition for any appreciable length of time.  Love to hear hard scientific data that contradicts that.

Now as to 'assemble yourself' hard plastics?  I'll be kind and say that is not for me and leave it there.

[AndrewBeasley]

It was interesting walking around Hammerhead as most of the younger sellers sold 3D print, resin or are service companies (paint / brush / basing materials) rather than metal figures.

The games had a mix of ages but the younger presenters seemed to be more skirmish sized and fantastic (SciFi or Fantasy) rather than classic historic games.

One game that seems to buck the age trend was the DBA tournament as this year the age was seemly younger than I had seen before.

Locally RPGs are WAY more popular than big battle games - these only use a few figures at most (if any) and I think they have an easier entry for the players as they can download the rules easily (please note this DBF) and use paper maps or just quick sketches rather than get involved in mass figure collection / painting.

[Mammoth miniatures]

The games had a mix of ages but the younger presenters seemed to be more skirmish sized and fantastic (SciFi or Fantasy) rather than classic historic games.

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This topic has come up quite alot over the last few years and the consensus seems to generally be that us younger folk have neither the disposable space, time, or income needed to build up the huge collections needed for large historical systems, and as such skirmish games that allow you to dip your toe in a certain period are more in vogue.

[black hat miniatures]

It was interesting walking around Hammerhead as most of the younger sellers sold 3D print, resin or are service companies (paint / brush / basing materials) rather than metal figures.

The games had a mix of ages but the younger presenters seemed to be more skirmish sized and fantastic (SciFi or Fantasy) rather than classic historic games.

One game that seems to buck the age trend was the DBA tournament as this year the age was seemly younger than I had seen before.

Locally RPGs are WAY more popular than big battle games - these only use a few figures at most (if any) and I think they have an easier entry for the players as they can download the rules easily (please note this DBF) and use paper maps or just quick sketches rather than get involved in mass figure collection / painting.

I switched to RPGS at the end of the 1970s and didn't start wargaming again until the mid-90s whenI had some space (bought a house) and was a bit more settled.  I think some of it is an age thing...

[Cholmondely Percival IV]

(.....)the consensus seems to generally be that us younger folk have neither the disposable space, time, or income needed to build up the huge collections needed for large historical systems(....)

This, I suspect, is also true of many of the not-so-young, such as myself. Most of my theoretically abundant time - I'm retired - is occupied in trying to cope with my severe deficiencies in the other areas. Even a skirmish game is currently impracticable for me, though this is getting somewhat off-topic.

[Cat]

Heck, even for us grognards, smaller skirmish systems are very attractive for a shorter build-to-table time and a lot less storage requirements in an already overburdened basement!

[Cholmondely Percival IV]

Quite so. Regrettably, however, my bungalow lacks a basement, as did the ninth-floor flat I previously inhabited. A serious design flaw, in my view.

[mikedemana]

Since its not an LLC, do you just claim it on your taxes?

Yep, that's what I'm doing now (and we should have done from the beginning). Each of us keep track of what our income was from our rule book sales and declare it on our taxes. Creating a whole new entity and making it a legal entity meant we had to file taxes like we were a brick and mortar store, essentially. And since none of us were accountants and truly understood arcane U.S. tax law, we made a couple minor mistakes. The IRS is unforgiving and unrelenting.

So, now, I just keep track of my sales and declare it as income. So much easier, and it is the way to go, in my opinion. Good luck in your venture!

Mike Demana

[Storm Wolf]

Heck, even for us grognards, smaller skirmish systems are very attractive for a shorter build-to-table time and a lot less storage requirements in an already overburdened basement!

Oh for a basement, again not so common in the UK 

Still that also means many less chances of bumping into Stephen Kings IT! or the boiler monster from Home Alone 

[Sakuragi Miniatures]

Yep, that's what I'm doing now (and we should have done from the beginning). Each of us keep track of what our income was from our rule book sales and declare it on our taxes. Creating a whole new entity and making it a legal entity meant we had to file taxes like we were a brick and mortar store, essentially. And since none of us were accountants and truly understood arcane U.S. tax law, we made a couple minor mistakes. The IRS is unforgiving and unrelenting.

So, now, I just keep track of my sales and declare it as income. So much easier, and it is the way to go, in my opinion. Good luck in your venture!

Mike Demana

Thanks! I'm just a retired Sailor and this is what I do for kicks. I figured, "if it doesn't exist then why not make it?"

[Annie]

I suppose I'll jump in here as a youngish owner of a small company set up in the last few years - I'm 30 and mammoth miniatures has been doing shows now for about 4 years - this will be our 4th salute in april.
It seems that whilst there are alot of companies owned by retired hobbyists that may run down activity over the next decade or so, there's no shortage of new ventures popping up, but the changing landscape of the hobby and retail means that they often arrive slowly via avenues like kickstarter, existing as digital only enterprises until they are a bit more established. I started with a small kickstarter in 2020 and it's taken 5 years for me to now be at a point where im considering dropping some hours from my day job to keep up with demand.
 It's always hard to know with these things whether the changing of one generation for another will succeed, in part because the canopy needs to thin before new saplings can break through and grow.

over the last few years there have been a number of retirements that have seen assets change ownership, and I don't see why this wouldn't carry on. I know for myself that there are ranges I would happily buy and maintain if they were available, if only to stop them disappearing.

Metal is probably going to decrease in popularity amongst manufacturers for a few reasons - the price of raw metal hasn't gone down since the pandemic when it skyrocketed. The machinery needed to create vulcanized moulds/spincast white metal is no longer easily attainable and when it is available it's either very expensive OR 70 years old and has gone through 4 different companies. Certainly in the UK I can only think of 2 manufacturers of spincasting machines - tiranti (now potterycrafts)  and spinbox - both small batch, not always available. if you want a new one you need to drop several thousand pound ordering from overseas. Resin or 3D printing is a far cheaper upfront investment.

In the very very long term the changing nature of creative and technical education is going to alter the ability of independent creatives to start and maintain businesses selling physical figures - No matter how good your printer is you still need to know how to sculpt (or at least have a critical enough eye to know whether somethinbg looks good) and that means knowing how to draw, how to work in three dimensions etc. I teach sculpture and there is a real skills deficit at the moment with incoming university students - not knowing how to read a ruler is probably going to be pretty prohibitive to your ability to write and test game rules for example.

Overall I'd say you don't need to worry - the indie wargaming scene is absolutely thriving, and generally as people get older their tastes diversify. I currently only do fantasy and sci fi stuff, But I've got an English civil war title in the works and a few minis in corks because the freedom granted by a little bit of established presence allows me to diversify into less profitable ventures.  I imagine there are many others in the indie scene who even now are thinking the exact same thing, secretly working away on their historical projects ready to release them on the world when our hairlines receded to just the right spot.

Everything Mammoth said there!

Bad Squiddo is 10 years old now and I'm a relative youngster (35), we're 99% hand sculpted and everything is hand cast in pewter or resin, with no interest in the STL or printing market, and there are other youngsters of the same idea too.

[black hat miniatures]

Glad to see so many positive replies to my query.  Though I am doubtful a significant amount of the 'stalwarts' will survive long - there are only so many companies that can only absorb so many lines of figures, especially lines that have already aged way beyond that 'first year' (not sure if it remains current but once upon a time in marketing there was a 'rule' that 50% of a product's sales occur in its first year of existence).  And I hear more than a hint that a lot of what might remain will be 'passion projects' rather than profit seeking endeavors. 

The 50% of sales in the first year only really applies to "boutique" games with associated rules set and setting.

Historical figures just keep selling - I was selling more 15mm aztecs when I sold the Gladiator ranges than when I started with them 12 years before...

Mike

[Dolnikan]

It makes sense for many of the older crew to be retiring but I think that many model lines will be getting bought by others. Perhaps not for as much money as the original owners would have wanted, but that's part of life. 3D printing obviously is very present but I think that it remains limited in reach because it actually takes quite some resources to set up safely. You can't exactly have a resin printer in a corner of your living room and most people don't have the space to set one up in a safe place. I for one don't. And honestly, 3D prints that you buy remains pretty darn expensive per figure, prohibitively so even. The classic metal figures have clear advantages there.

I do however think that metal rank and file figures will become ever harder to sell because there now are HIPS alternatives available that come to a much lower price point. And those are available for ever more periods in excellent quality. So that might lead to more consolidation of the market.

As a youngster (relatively to the company owners we're talking about of course) I personally prefer physical miniatures and actually quite like metal ones. They just feel nice and I find that they paint nicely.

[RRBMinis]

...am I off base or is a great 'melting away' imminent (rarely do such small companies have succession plans)?

I don't think you need to worry about a great melting away do to that.  A good number of those older people are making plans to retire years beforehand.  I started my company 3 years ago just because an owner I was dealing with started to scale back his operations due to his planning to retire in "5 years or so".  He agreed to sell me the rights to a line that he was not going to do anything with any longer.  I now have picked up more lines from him, plus parts of 3 other such companies, and am in negotiations right now with a 5th one.  Sure it is a terrible thing when someone dies early/unexpectedly and does not leave clearly documented instructions on how to forward the company on to someone else.  There will always unfortunately be some of those situations, but a good many owners are selling off portions as they near retirement... and they are happy to see their 'babies' go to someone like me that will keep them in production for years to come.

[Easy E]

Yep, that's what I'm doing now (and we should have done from the beginning). Each of us keep track of what our income was from our rule book sales and declare it on our taxes. Creating a whole new entity and making it a legal entity meant we had to file taxes like we were a brick and mortar store, essentially. And since none of us were accountants and truly understood arcane U.S. tax law, we made a couple minor mistakes. The IRS is unforgiving and unrelenting.

So, now, I just keep track of my sales and declare it as income. So much easier, and it is the way to go, in my opinion. Good luck in your venture!

Mike Demana

Sorry to hear about your issues Mike.  I have a couple LLCs for various ventures and have never had similar issues.  However, I do have a Federal Tax ID as well.  Bad luck old bean!   

For financial protection, I strongly recommend an LLC of some sort.  In many states, they are very simple to set-up and maintain with only a yearly fee.  For taxes, typically a simple Profit and Loss statement attached with said tax form is often enough.  It is always a good idea to keep any money from your LLC in a separate account from other income streams, but it is not required; just a best practice. 

Of course, talk to your local tax expert instead of trusting some idiot on the internet.