Soviet VDV To&E Mid 1980s?

[Rick]

I have been looking for a Nona for a while now as well. As far as I know, Butlers do a model of the 2B16 Nona-K, which was the same turret fitted to a BTR80 hull (the K stands for wheeled). The model you want is the 2S9 Nona-S fitted to the BTRD hull, which is basically a BMD hull lengthened with an extra road wheel but no turret, just a pintle mounted mg on the base version. I have found 15mm resin printed models of the Nona-S on ebay and, of course, Battlefront do a battery of 3 models as a box set - not sure if you'll be able to find one on its own though.
As an update, I just checked and Butlers do now make a model of the 2S9 Nona-S, so I do apologise and my information was a bit out of date - unless you want the Nona-K of course!

[SJWi]

Jemima, many thanks for the warning. A bad situation but not unlike a few others in the hobby .  My search for an ASU-85 and NONA goes on. A mate of mine has pointed out some Battlefront Team Yankee ones on E-Bay but I definitely don't want 5 and 3 pf them respectively.

[carlos marighela]

BobMack 3D has files for both the ASU-85 and the BTR-D. There are a number of commercial printing services that produce resin prints of these. If you haven't seen them, they are absolutely first rate sculpts. Of course if you have a 3D printer or know someone who does, you can just order the files.

https://bobmack3d.myshopify.com/collections/soviet-vehicles-of-the-cold-war-3d-print-stl-files?page=3

Here's the 2S9 Nona in 15mm:

https://bobmack3d.myshopify.com/collections/soviet-vehicles-of-the-cold-war-3d-print-stl-files?page=3

[sultanbev]

Battlefield 3D who are one of the best 3d resin print companies, do a 2S-9,
https://battlefield3d.com/product/2s9-nona-s/

they also do the BTR-D Robot, BTR-ZD with twin 23mm, BTR-D, all essential items for a BMD based airborne unit.
No ASU-85 though.
Currently taking about 4 weeks to complete my orders.

There are assorted VDV lists in the MicroMark collection over on the Wargames Vault

R43MA: Russian Airborne Division 1982-1990, all theatres
R44MA: Russian Airborne Division 1989+, Russia
R83M: Russian Airborne Division 1983-1989, Afghanistan
R325M: Russian 104th Guards Airborne Division, Kirovabad, Azerbaijan, 1988-1990
R339M: Russian 76th Guards Airborne Division, Leningrad MD, 1986-1991

[Rick]

The Nona-S was developed in 1981, entered service in 1984/5 but really wasn't fielded in numbers until 1987/88. Similarly the BTRD (other than the base specialist apc version) variants weren't fielded in numbers until 88-90, when they took over from the BRDM at and aa vehicles. For the VDV of 1984/5 they simply wouldn't have many of those BTRD vehicles - it takes years to get from prototype to production, from production to mass production, then training the soldiers to use them to actually getting them onto the battlefield.

[Rick]

It's a bit academic anyway as, if you're using 7dttrR, there are no stats for them in the book; I would treat the BTRD as a BTR50 - same mobility, armour and weapon. The BTR-RD "Robot" is basically just a specialist atgm team carrier; BTR50 plus support ATGM team and, if your opponent allows, the ability to fire the ATGM while mounted. Same with the AGS17 g/l team as there is a specialist BTRD with pintle mounts for the Plamya g/l to fire mounted. If the support team dismounts (and why wouldn't you?) then so do the weapons.
As to the BTRD with the portee ZU 23-2 in a completely exposed mount on the top, I'd treat it as a Shilka but ANY hit that gives morale markers will knock out the gun team, whether it penetrates or not.

[Ursus Maior]

As a further update, I have an in-service date of 1987 for the BMD2, although the sources I have also suggested it may have been fielded in small numbers (3 per company at most) for a few years earlier than that but certainly no earlier than about 1984/5. The ASU-85 was withdrawn from front-line service early-mid 80's so would not have been used with the BMD2 (the last ASU-85's in Afghanistan were used as part of the defences around Kabul, in heavily fortified static positions). However, the Nona (120mm on BTRD chassis) entered service in 1984/5 as far as I can tell so would probably make a better support unit with the BMD2's.
Hope this helps.

I, too, was under the impression the ASU-85 was completely removed from service by the mid-80s. After all, the Polish had removed it from their ORBAT for the 6th Pomeranian Airborne Division in 1976. But indeed, the Soviets kept the ASU-85 "in service" until 1993 (well, the Russians did). I first stumbled upon this information in the German Wikipedia, but two other sources back this up: 1) The US field manual FM 100-2-3: The Soviet Army: Troops, Organization, and Equipment from July 1991 (cf. here pp. 4-149 and 4-154: https://irp.fas.org/doddir/army/fm100-2-3.pdf) as well as 2) this webiste in Russian (https://desantura.ru/articles/15/?PAGEN_1=3), which states in its penultimate paragraph, last sentence: " The SU-85s were taken out of service only in 1993." The German Wikipedia however clarifies that the "majority" of the vehicles by than had been mothballed.

Clearly, the majority of Soviet ASU-85 was gradually replaced since the introduction of the original BMD. After all, the reason to field the BMD-- with the same gun as the BMP-1 was so that VDV infantry could field organic anti-tank weaponry under armor. With BMD receiving AT-3 and later ATGM, the ASU-85 lost even further in purpose. However, the Soviets had a huge number of troops to reequip: with 6 active airborne divisions, (IIRC) 17 independent airborne brigades and one spetsnaz regiment to fit out, these things took time.

And once Cold War had gotten hot and VDV force were eaten up during initial operations and then reconstituted in the motherland, they might have gotten their ASU-85s back due to lack of BMDs. By then, these vehicles would've been sitting in depots anywhere from 5-15 years, which means reactivation would've been possible. Look at what Russia pulls out of depots today.

Bottom line: Front line units on D+0 or even D+30 in 1985? Probably no, unless we're talking Afganistan or - you know - you just roll with it, because "the unit redeployed from Afganistan and jumped right into battle" (and why not?). Then, D+90: Absolutely could see that.

[Rick]

The ASU 85's were almost certainly withdrawn from all Soviet Cat A formations by about 1985/6, then lingered in the Cat B/C formations until about 1993. Poland only has the equivalent of Cat A formations so withdrew them as soon as something even slightly better came along.

[carlos marighela]

See? This is why we aim for 1984 as a sweet spot.

The ASU-85, whilst being fairly craptastic, is a sexy looking beast. It's an iconic airborne vehicle and fulfills that need for there to be an SU-85 style 'tank destroyer/SPG' somewhere on the table. I'm usually a bit anal about model types and a rivet counter in general but I'd be prepared to let this one slide. In a similar way, I'm happy to supplement my Soviet infantry with some quite specifically Afghanistan equipped troops (body armour, chest rigs). They exist, look sexy and yeah I can always say they were redeployed in a hurry from A'stan.

I suspect that in the case of the Poles, the 1976 withdrawal of the ASU-85 had more to do with the general reductions evident in the Polish Armed forces due to Poland's dire economic state. The Polish Airborne never fielded BMDs or any of the BMD variants. They were and remained essentially leg infantry. There are a few extant photos of their airborne exercising with OT-64s (the earlier 12.7mm pintle mounted version) but as the Poles had no real airlift for these, this was presumably for specific exercise purposes. They could not have lifted the ASU-85s using their own resources either for that matter and would have been reliant on Soviet airlift for any strategic movement.

The Poles still had Cat C, wartime mobilisation, divisions equipped with T-34/85s until the end of the Cold War, so it can't really be a question of hoping for something better.

[Rick]

Very few of the WarPac countries had much in the way of airborne forces - even the East German airborne was more of an elite internal security force. What the Poles did have was a nice big Naval Infantry unit which, in conjunction with Soviet Naval Infantry in the Baltic region, was expected to try to punch out Denmark. The ASU 85 was probably not an asset to either the Naval Infantry or the armoured units and, therefore, not really worth hanging onto.
Someone once said that the Soviets occasionally gifted the WarPac countries with a handful.of new vehicles from time to time; not enough to be useful but they looked pretty in the May parades! Perhaps the Polish ASU 85's were a legacy of this benevolent tokenism?

[carlos marighela]

The NVA paras were more of an SF unit than paras. They were essentially a raiding force until about 1986 when there was an expansion from a battalion to the core of an airlanding brigade (40 Luftsturm regiment).

Yes, they did have a role guarding SDE officials and buildings in East Berlin but this aligned, at least in terms of location, with their wartime role. In the Bordenkante '85 and 86 exercises their role was revealed as seizing the major airports in West Berlin. These align with what we know of the East German plan to seize West Berlin, the Zentrum/Stoss operation. Two companies of the 1st Battalion (ex 40 Willi Sänger) were assigned to capture Tegel and another to capture Tempelhof. These were to be heliborne assaults. Gatow btw was the target of a Grenztruppen regiment (battalion sized).

The Polish naval landing division was really more of a brigade sized structure but highly rated. It would have been an interesting multi national force tasked to invade Denmark. Soviet naval infantry, Polish marines and an earmarked East German MRR, trained in amphibious operations.

There's a great little monograph on the NVA paras by a former battalion commander. Worth a read.

https://fallschirmjaeger-der-nva.de/

[Ursus Maior]

See? This is why we aim for 1984 as a sweet spot.

Indeed. It also gives you a possible duel of the StuGs with Soviet ASU-85 having a meeting engagement with the venerable Jagdpanzer Kanone. Both have very similar armor, speed and calibre of the main gun. From 1983 onwards, the Jagdpanzer was taken out of frontline service and handed down to the Heimatschutzregimenter of the territorial forces. Those regiments had almost no heavy fire support, except for six Jagdpanzer, twelve heavy mortars (120 mm) and maybe a Milan per platoon (but more likely Carl Gustaf recoilless rifles). But none of the three battalions had organic heavy weapon companies, so they were basically four platoons per company and four companies per battalion (plus the usual command elements).

[Rick]

You do know how that 'duel' will go, don't you? If the ASU85 fires first, the shots'll likely bounce off, then when the Kanonenjagdpanzer fires, it'll gut the ASU85 lengthwise and knock out the one behind as a bonus! 

[carlos marighela]

Indeed. It also gives you a possible duel of the StuGs with Soviet ASU-85 having a meeting engagement with the venerable Jagdpanzer Kanone. Both have very similar armor, speed and calibre of the main gun. From 1983 onwards, the Jagdpanzer was taken out of frontline service and handed down to the Heimatschutzregimenter of the territorial forces. Those regiments had almost no heavy fire support, except for six Jagdpanzer, twelve heavy mortars (120 mm) and maybe a Milan per platoon (but more likely Carl Gustaf recoilless rifles). But none of the three battalions had organic heavy weapon companies, so they were basically four platoons per company and four companies per battalion (plus the usual command elements).

1984 Yup. Plain vanilla Chieftains, no TOGS, no Stillbrew. You can, if you really wish, justify a small number of Challengers, they go their first exercise outing on Ex Crusader in 1984. Ditto the first use of Saxon on the same exercise.

Plain vanilla M1 Abrams with the remote prospect of an M1IP. You can still field the Marder 1A1 with the funky R2D2 remote machine gun on the rear deck. Lots more Leopard 1 variants to play with.

On the other side T-64s are in the ascendant but there are still quire a number of T-62s floating around in GSFG.

[Rick]

T-64's (and later, the T-80's) are usually only to be found in GSFG and, possibly, Ukraine SSR units. Rumour had it that they were to be fielded only in units relatively close to their manufacturing bases as they were complicated beasts, needed a lot of maintenance work and, often, urgent replacements! 
Whether that is true or not, I don't really know, but they were only fielded in those areas and never had an export version (until fairly recently (1990's?) with the 320 Ukraine T-80UD's sold to Pakistan).