British uniforms: Red, Tan, Green? Please explain.

[Captaingeneral]

The New Model red in question in the 1600's was Venice or Venetian red, not terribly sure what hue that was, The Lord Protector oft quoted...wrote to Sir William Spring in 1643: "I had rather have a plain, russet-coated captain that knows what he fights for, and loves what he knows, than that which you call a gentleman and is nothing else"

So surely not scarlet. But yes it appears it was available in large quantities and at the right price.

Charles II army both Infantry and Cavary was predominantly clothed in red with a few notable exceptions
CG

[ErikB]

Wow, great thread, folks.  Thanks.

One more question, though - what is the difference between "rifles" like Sharpe (in green uniforms) and other units?

Was this when they introduced rifling (twisting) to the weapons and so only certain units got the more accurate rifled weapons?  Therefore the green uniform was a status symbol, like what a specially colored (not black in the USA) beret means nowadays?

[guitarheroandy]

I think the first real example of British and Dominion troops fighting completely clothed in khaki was the 2nd Boer War 1899-1901. Red was still retained for home service dress for all British regular regiments until the outbreak of the Great War. 

If I'm correct, all British units in the 1897 NW Frontier Pathan uprising wore Khaki throughout the summer months, with some blue home service trousers occasionally appearing in the winter (one plate in Michael Barford's excellent 'Frontier Ablaze' has a signaller wearing blue trousers (I think - book upstairs buried beneath piles of stuff so can't check!). I'm sure that no red tunics were worn by any infantry in this campaign (unless worn beneath khaki in the winter for added warmth.)

I believe British troops somewhere in West Africa in 1896 (Ashanti??) wore red tunics...again, I'd need to check. However, for Colonial wargaming purposes, if you were fielding British troops  anywhere in games set after 1885 in India, China or Africa (or anywhere nearby), you'd be pretty safe with khaki...

[Red Orc]

...what is the difference between "rifles" like Sharpe (in green uniforms) and other units?

Was this when they introduced rifling (twisting) to the weapons and so only certain units got the more accurate rifled weapons?  Therefore the green uniform was a status symbol, like what a specially colored (not black in the USA) beret means nowadays?

As I understand it, yes. The Rifle regiments were just that - the first regiments given rifles rather than those smooth-bore things that the uninitiated (like me) call ... you know, those musketty things. By the Victorian period I believe all line infantry regiments had rifles anyway, so the distinction became academic and the uniform just a matter of tradition.

[Doug ex-em4]

........or an item of clothing called a blue patrol jacket (which was, as might be assumed, blue). So ordinary infantry officers could often be seen dressed in blue, too.

Ahhh; interesting. So is that why current British Army soldiers refer to their "best" uniform as "blues" or "best blues"?

Doug

[Trooper]

Rifle regiments wearing green was introduced in the early 19th century on the formation of the 95th. The 60th became a rifle regiment at around the same time, as both served in the peninsula war together. Green was issued because of their role. This was mainly not fighting in massed ranks like their fellows of the "red army", but reflected the fact that they were trained in outpost and skirmishing work. These two units were not the first British units who saw service with "rifles". Fergusons loyalist corps fought with the Ferguson rifle during the War of Independence, although they are shown wearing a cut down version of standard contemporary British uniform. There was also an experimental corps of riflemen established in 1800 formed from the 5th battalion 60th Foot at the start of the Napoleonic Wars, who wore a dark blue uniform. There is some debate as to whether the 60th or the 95th was the first "rifle" regiment. As the experimental corps formed the basis of the new rifle regiments it could be argued that the 60th were indeed the first. The 60th were certainly the older of the two, tracing their formation back to the Seven Years War, when they were formed as the 60th Royal American Regiment. But then they were a locally raised regiment of the line. It was not until the general issue of the Enfield muzzle loading rifle in the 1850s that Rifle regiments were armed like their line infantry comrades. It would seem that the rifle designation was retained as an indication of a more "elite" status and role. Although by now they had become the Rifle Brigade, later to become the Royal Green Jackets. The Rifle Brigade certainly fought most of its colonial campaigns in green, but even after switching to khaki they retained their distinctive black leather equipment. The real changes came into effect by the start of WWI.

[Trooper]

Somebody mentioned the Ashanti War, and British infantry had a special uniform designed for that campaign, I don't know why and I have not seen it worn anywhere else. It was quite practical in appearance and was in a dark khaki and light blue/grey. Its true that most British troops were wearing khaki by 1887, but it was not completely standard, and some items of home service dress were retained. I have seen mixtures of blue trousers with khaki tunics and red tunics with khaki trousers and puttees. Highland regiments retained the kilt even if wearing a khaki tunic, and their variant had a highland cut to it as well. I gave the 2nd Boer War, because that seems to have been the campaign when these changes to full khaki for overseas service became standard.   

[Doc Twilight]

Regular army uniforms were red. The home guard uniforms were blue. The General Post Office Rifles was a home guard unit that was sent to the Sudan. Imagine serving there in the home guard dark blue wool tunics & woolen grey trousers. Other blue uniforms could be royal marines, or some colonial raised 'home guard' units

Don't forget that the POR were also at Tel El Kebir:) I've always been fascinated by that unit. Have some painted up for the Anglo-Egyptian Campaign, but would do suitably well for the Sudan.

-Doc

[fastolfrus]

The New Model red in question in the 1600's was Venice or Venetian red, not terribly sure what hue that was, The Lord Protector oft quoted...wrote to Sir William Spring in 1643: "I had rather have a plain, russet-coated captain that knows what he fights for, and loves what he knows, than that which you call a gentleman and is nothing else"
So surely not scarlet. But yes it appears it was available in large quantities and at the right price.
Charles II army both Infantry and Cavary was predominantly clothed in red with a few notable exceptions
CG

Charles I issued large quantities of red and blue uniforms to his Oxford army during the civil war, but otherwise it was commonly accepted that colonels who raised regiments bought their uniform (so pick your favourite colour or whatever is cheap on the market this week). The New Model was dressed in Venice Red when parliament imported a huge batch (from Holland ?)

[fastolfrus]

Nothing on hand to back this up, but there was speculation that the Durch "acquired" the cheap Venice Red from the Spanish (as plunder in the 80 Years War), which would fit in with British governmental purchasing - "it's only for the army, buy something cheap that's been stolen".

National uniform colours started to be adopted throughout Europe in the 1650s-1690s, and we stayed with red for infantry.
Artillery were in a "dirty" occupation so had blue (wouldn't show the dirt so much), also you could easily distinguish them.
By the Napoleonic era (and on to the Crimea etc) light cavalry (hussars, lancers, light dragoons) wore blue coats, heavy cavalry wore red.

Rifle regiments were just part of a long line of specialist infantry units - fusileers (originally specialist troops armed with fusils), grenadiers, etc. but the rifles were very distinctive because they were dressed in rifle green. Other specialist units got fairly standard uniform but occasionally different hats, and badges, and traditions...... until government cutbacks got at them.

[joroas]

. The Rifle regiments were just that - the first regiments given rifles rather than those smooth-bore things that the uninitiated (like me) call ... you know, those musketty things. By the Victorian period I believe all line infantry regiments had rifles anyway, so the distinction became academic and the uniform just a matter of tradition.

They still have unusual traits.  Green is still worn in full dress and they still have black belts, buttons and badges.  Officers still wear black cartouche belts over their shoulders and not a Sam Browne belt.  They have a faster marching pace and bugles instead of drums.  So shades of Sharpe are still there.

[Gluteus Maximus]

You must be thinking of someone else mate, as I haven't commented on this thread. But in general terms, yes, I am. 

  Sorry, that was Doc Twilight I was referring to. You must both look very similar or something. 

[guitarheroandy]

Somebody mentioned the Ashanti War, and British infantry had a special uniform designed for that campaign, I don't know why and I have not seen it worn anywhere else. It was quite practical in appearance and was in a dark khaki and light blue/grey. Its true that most British troops were wearing khaki by 1887, but it was not completely standard, and some items of home service dress were retained. I have seen mixtures of blue trousers with khaki tunics and red tunics with khaki trousers and puttees. Highland regiments retained the kilt even if wearing a khaki tunic, and their variant had a highland cut to it as well. I gave the 2nd Boer War, because that seems to have been the campaign when these changes to full khaki for overseas service became standard.   

It was me that made the point about Ashanti. However, I think the Ashanti War you refer to was earlier - 1870s? I can even visualise the Osprey plate of a soldier from that war and the uniform you describe...I was thinking of a later expedition in or around 1896...but it my not be Ashanti - somewhere West Coast of Africa. I have a picture in an Osprey somewhere. Trouble is the spare room where my gaming books live is currently storing 'stuff' while we have conversion work done, so I can't check. You may well be right about the Boer War...

[Grekwood]

red tends to be for main inf units ... blue for artillary and naval units such as marines, green for riflemen, and black for police/militia type units..... The green of the rifles was originally an early form of camoflage for the skirmishers and just stuck with the riflemen.

In 1800, an "Experimental Corps of Riflemen", was raised by Colonel Coote Manningham and Lieutenant-Colonel the Hon. William Stewart, drawn from officers and other ranks from drafts of a variety of British regiments. The Corps differed in several regards from the Line infantry of the British Army. Most significantly, the "Rifles" were armed with the formidable Baker rifle, which was more accurate and of longer range than the musket, although it took longer to load. As the rifle was shorter than the musket, it was issued with a 21-inch sword-bayonet.

The riflemen wore dark green jackets rather than the bright red coats of the British line infantry regiments of that time...designed for concealment rather than display. This has been retained until the present day for those British units that still carry on the traditions of the riflemen

The British Army was in the midst of a significant weapons transformation from smoothbore muskets to rifled muskets. While three of the four divisions of the field army in the Crimea had been supplied with the pattern 1851 Minie Rifle-musket, the other regiments of the army around the Empire still carried the 1842 pattern smoothbore musket. By the end of 1853, the Enfield Rifle-musket as approved by the War Department for the army and was put into production. The Enfield saw extensive action in the Crimean War which lasted from 1854-1856, with the first Enfield rifles being issued to troops from February 1855.

many Enfield 1853 Rifle-Muskets were converted to (and replaced in service by) the cartridge-loaded Snider-Enfield rifle in 1866

Snider-Enfield    Breech-loading    .577 Snider            1866-1901
Martini-Henry    Falling block    .577/450 Martini-Henry    1871-1918
Lee-Metford    Bolt action      .303 British             1888-1926
Lee-Enfield            Bolt-action            .303 British                 1895-Present (limited use)

some more useful information......

In 1846 Sir Harry Lumsden raised a corps of Guides for frontier service from British Indian recruits at Peshawar. Regiments serving in the region had adopted properly dyed khaki uniforms for active service and summer dress. The original khaki fabric was a closely twilled cloth of linen or cotton. The British Army adopted khaki for the campaign dress in 1897, and it was used in the Second Boer War (1899-1902). A darker shade of khaki serge was adopted for home service dress in 1902.

British soldiers fought in scarlet tunics for the last time at the Battle of Gennis on 30 December 1885.

Even after the adoption of khaki service dress in 1902, most British infantry and some cavalry regiments continued to wear scarlet tunics on parade and for off-duty "walking out dress", until the outbreak of the First World War in 1914.

Scarlet tunics ceased to be general issue upon British mobilisation in August 1914. The Brigade of Guards resumed wearing their scarlet full dress in 1920 but for the remainder of the Army red coats were only authorised for wear by regimental bands and officers in mess dress or on certain limited social or ceremonial occasions (notably attendance at Court functions or weddings). The reason for not generally reintroducing the distinctive full dress was primarily financial, as the scarlet cloth requires expensive cochineal dye.

[fastolfrus]

red tends to be for main inf units ... blue for artillary and naval units such as marines, green for riflemen, and black for police/militia type units..... The green of the rifles was originally an early form of camoflage for the skirmishers and just stuck with the riflemen.

Depending on date, marines could be in yellow (pre William III) or more usually in red (although Royal Marine Artillery would be in blue)