New Artizan Landsknecht Doppelsoldier packs

[oxiana]

You could certainly mix the odd one in but I wouldnt do a whole force of them to fight the Inca

That's what I was thinking - a couple of personalities. Mind you, I'd have to buy the whole set, just to be sure...

[Grimm]

wow ! they are cool

[Regulator]

They look nice, but not very historical accurate. They look like giants with big trees in their hands and the clothes are a bit too large... 

[Lowtardog]

That's what I was thinking - a couple of personalities. Mind you, I'd have to buy the whole set, just to be sure...

  A man after my own heart

[OSHIROmodels]

GW's current empire plastic state troops don't look like historical landsknechts anymore, unlike the previous edition. They are also considered bad sculpts, even among the empire players on the Warhammer Empire forum.

Their greatswords are better (though still somewhat more stylised than their historical counterparts) though are known as goldswords due to being one of the most expensive sets.

I must admit I don't really like the new Empire figures at all, they just seem to over the top (especially the mechanical horse thing).

All I do now is look on bring and buys and the second hand traders for any that are going relatively cheap, I've found quite a few so far but these new Artizan are very tempting and look like they would fit in nicely with the older GW Empire figs.

cheers

James

[white knight]

I have the complete Foundry range and all the GW models from the previous two editions, including 5 or 6 sets of the previous edition plastics, which should cover my needs. I also bought some of the newer sets cheap, but will likely use spare heads and arms from the previous edition to make them fit in. These artizan ones are on the want list too, though I must admit that on some of them the clothes do look a bit exagerrated.

[Axebreaker]

So it's a range of Landsknechts with no obvious candidates as opposition then? Brilliant.

Well,that's not true.The Landsknechts modeled themselves after the Swiss in both tactics and appearance(some minor differences) except perhaps the Landsknechts were even more flamboyant then the Swiss.The Swiss didn't like this one bit and thus ensued a bitter rivalry with the two sides often fighting each other on different sides.
In effect,you can collect by yourself or with a friend a host of Artizan Landsknechtes with one side representing the Swiss and the other the Landsknechtes.So actually,Artizan gave you an opposition all in the same line.

Cheers
Christopher

[Captaingeneral]

These are very nice sculpts and I will definately need a set for my Valois army , but the swords are really too simple and I would have liked more variation... ornate hilts, ricasso flamberge.

Those greatswords were actually used more like spears with one hand gripping the blade.

Well half right, they were designed for the Doppelsoeldner to leap forward out of the pike block just before impact and by cutting downward in a scything blow, lop off opposing pike shafts and disrupt the enemy block allowing their own pikes to break into the enemy formation and splinter it. 
Very dangerous, so they got double pay (hence the name) Of course they were then sandwiched between blocks and would then resort to moving the left hand beyond the hilt to grasp the blade, (to enable stabbing thrusts) This part of the blade was usually covered by a leather sleeve, called a 'ricasso', further protection for the hand was afforded by a second smaller hilt, to stop other swords sliding up the blade and removing thumbs and fingers  Ouch!

Blade length could be as much as 5 feet! Wavy bladed swords were quite common 'flamberge' The Styrian state armoury at Graz has racks of them (I'll try and find some photos), presumably the effect being something like a giant steak-knife!
Although this tactic fell from favour around 1510-1515, the Swiss particularly rejecting the Bi-haender in order to have more pikes.
My theory is all the old nutter soldiers died out and replacements willing to risk all were harder to find.

CG

[Mad Doc Morris]

Well half right, they were designed for the Doppelsoeldner to leap forward out of the pike block just before impact and by cutting downward in a scything blow, lop off opposing pike shafts and disrupt the enemy block allowing their own pikes to break into the enemy formation and splinter it. Very dangerous, so they got double pay (hence the name)

Don't want to be pedantic (okay, I am obviously ), but I have to disagree here. What you describe stems from 19th century interpretations. There's been some debate over actual tactical use of doppelsöldner in the meantime. However, numbers of greatswords among them (there were others with different equipment) apparently weren't high at all, most of them deployed around the flags in the centre of a pike block. Not the best position to start a surprise attack from. And at least, chopping off a swinging wooden shaft with a sword's blade is nearly impossible.
By now it is believed, that greatswords were only used after the pike blocks clashed (like halberds), so against disordered or withdrawing enemies and as a last ressort to protect the flags of a routed unit.

Maybe a bit over the top here. I like the figures as I like the image of doppelsöldner wielding greatswords, anyway!

[OSHIROmodels]

My theory is all the old nutter soldiers died out and replacements willing to risk all were harder to find.

Sounds about right 

cheers

James

[Captain Blood]

What a wonderful, erudite discussion! 
Thank you gentlemen

[archangel1]

GW's current empire plastic state troops don't look like historical landsknechts anymore...

Sorry, White Knight, nothing personal but it never fails to amuse me when people who are playing a fantasy game get upset because their minis aren't historical enough!

[white knight]

No offence taken. This being said, I like the historical landsknecht look and I also like the fantasy models that generally stick to that look, even though fantasy elements are added to it. What I meant is that the current state troops really abandoned the look altogether (as opposed to the previous edition). They are closer to fantasy WOTR than to fantasy landsknechts. Therefore (and that was the point of the post after someone asked why not use GW models instead of the artizan range) they can't be considered alternatives to the artizan landsknechts.

[archangel1]

Fair enough.  The State Troops do, however, remind me of some of the Swiss Landsknechts, who sometimes dressed much more 'conservatively', shall we say, than their German counterparts.  I'm thinking of a few of my old Ral Partha minis that were dressed in what almost looked like a bodysuit or leotard, topped with a floppy hat.

[Captaingeneral]

Good discussion I agree 

What you describe stems from 19th century interpretations. There's been some debate over actual tactical use of doppelsöldner in the meantime.

Thats great information can you steer me to the research? I'd love to read it.

I agree the Bihaender probably fulfilled all the functions you describe and they were certainly posted in the rank behind the heavily armoured front ranks (also doppelsoeldner)as well as the colour guard.
This doesn't detract from the argument that they were used to cut into enemy formations. Here are a couple of early woodcuts from the Wiesskunig showing swords right at the front slashing to cut into the enemy block..(you can just make them out bottom centre in each pic.)

And at least, chopping off a swinging wooden shaft with a sword's blade is nearly impossible.

Who says? Why invent a giant sword and then only use it for thusting? Just get yourself a spear! the downward force of an overhead swing with a steel blade of 5 feet must be colossal, even if it doesn't cut clean through it will cause serious disruption and certainly drive several pike shafts into the ground rather than them striking the opposing pikemen.

The theory is that the serrated blades help in this regard because as they strike a pike shaft the blade will always be at an angle to the shaft  as opposed to 90 degrees on thus enhancing the cutting power.(think saw tooth - we cut on an angle for a reason..)

They are difficult to forge, why bother if it adds no extra advantage?

What we need of course is someone with an actual weapon to test this out
Any takers?

CG