Wind and the Lion

[argsilverson]

If you check your photo titled Arnauten, you see in the far right one greek evzone somewhere in the middle you see another (the one with a red coat) behind him is the third one. It is the one in blue coat with the sword pointing.
all these come from foundry's CMG1 & CMG2 packs, whichare named in artistic licence "greek volunteers" firing and advancing with officer.
Alas, their uniform is not correct in general and can only be fielded only as tokens in wargames.

There is always a relation between greece and russia. The south of russia from Odessa to the caucasus are there were lots of greek habitants (even today ?) speaking greek. Remember that names like Sevastopol, Simferopol etc are greek name, ancient greek colonies (since 7c BC or so). They used to field separate regiments in some of russia's war. Famous Balaclave regiment in the Napoleonic wars.
During Crimean war, the small kingdom of greece, trying to survive in the tiny territory that had after the war of independence, thought that fielding with the orthodox brothers of russia, will bring the much needed territorial expansion. The memories from the indepedence war against the ottoman empire were still fresh, considering also that more than half of todays greek territory was still under ottoman rule. Also, remember that Ottomans were allied to france and britain against russia. The "allies" blockaded piraeus and forced official government into a neutrality, hard paid by the plague brought in the territory by the evacuating french and british troops.

Some greeks volunteers left greece and joined with local greeks and formed again the balaclava regiment. but they wore russian style uniforms, while they carried a sky blue flag with a gold cross.  what they did or what they achieved is another story, that I do not know, yet, and is far beyond the scope of this thread.

My initial question was placed, because they do not look like arnauts, and by 1900 when thw actual incident of mrs pendecaris took place, I think that there was no use of the term "arnaut" and is difficult to find greek troops in any sultan's army. But, I take your word as "we do not always have the proper miniatures"

[WillieB]

It's one of my gaming groups all time favorite movies. I've been thinking about setting up a game based on the last big fight. I've got a bunch of sailors, but no Colt MG, and SAW US marines would work just great.

Tom,

Redoubt makes a nice 28mm Colt MG, on on a wheeled carriage as seen in the film.

[former user]

@Argsilverson

it would be this picture

as a matter of fact, these were meant to be some sort of mercenaries, and I think the choice of word was not meant historically, but more as a kind of "tag" in a muslim context.
As such the band was OK to look "Ragtag".
What I can say is that the original meaning of "arnaut" is turkish and means "Albanian", and I know of the use of this word for the end of the 19th C in the (Albanian) mercenary context. Whether it was still used in 1905 and in Morocco I can't say.

I agree that greek mercenaries in Muslim employment are hardly compatible, although I can not say if the ethnic costume associated with "Evzone" was originally purely greek or general balcanic. What I know is that this costume was inspired by the κλέφτης rebels when Queen Amalia designed the original uniform in the 1830ies, and thus must be associated by Greeks with the fight against Ottoman rule. Since the Albanians were originally Greeks who converted to Islam and thus were able to rise in the Ottoman Military, my "educated guess" would be that the origin of κλέφτης costume would be southern balcanic/northeastern greek and thus some variation possible in the Albanic ethnic costume.
This site
http://www.albanian.com/v4/showthread.php?t=19017
tags this picture as "Albanian costume 1915"


so I cannot say much apart from the fact that the miniatures You mention seem to have some pants beneath the kilt
But this topic is interesting and I would certainly like to learn more about it.

[argsilverson]

former user:
don;t take as granted whatever you find in the net.
anyhow the kilts appear in many south balkan regions, but also they present differences in style, cut and fashion throughout the whole balkan peninsula. Fustanella (the kilt with 400 plaids) is the traditional costume of Peloponese and Sterea Hellas (central greece south of thessaly). This model was used for the bavarians to cut some of the military uniforms. Amalia designed the female costume, which is still named as "amalia" and "amalias" are the girls wearing this costume (in carnival or national feasts) something similar to the meaning of "dirndl" .
Rest I think is not related to original thread.

I do not know whether they used the term arnaut by the end of 19th century,  I think they might have used the term bashi-bouzouks for the irregular and light infantry. In north africa it is unlikely they used terms like arnauts, basically usually, if I am not mistaken, arnauts were used in the balkans. But all these are irrelevant to the game itself.
My only question was how managed to use the "crimean greek volunteers" as arnauts, but as I told you everybody uses the available figures in the games. (I once used ottoman gunners as swedish artillery in a game against moghul indians -instead of appropriate figures for a 30yearsWar game !!!! imagine gustavus adolfus against elephants !!!)
BTW during Ottoman empire there was not any sole greek unit, Greeks drafted mainly in the navy or the "martolos" provisional units among other otoman subjects.
Since you like criticism there are two other units that need to be discussed. militia and sultan's guard. militia unit has smarter uniforms that the guard's

[former user]

Thx for the loads of Information.
What You mentioned would be these units I guess



Well, I guess the Guard are french Turcos and the militia Belgian Akaris
Which one is smarter I can't tell
all not my miniatures

[oxiana]

Who makes the parrots on the perch? The rest of the set seems to be Mega Miniatures, but I can't see the birds in the Mega Minis eBay shop. Thanks.

[Sterling Moose]

Since the Albanians were originally Greeks who converted to Islam

I didn't know that.

[former user]

Greeks in a broader sense - but indeed, Albanians were one of the few groups on the Balkans who readily converted to Islam. Ironically, Irecently read that many Albanians nowadays would reassume their greek names and reconvert in order to get a greek "greencard"....

[argsilverson]

Greeks in a broader sense - but indeed, Albanians were one of the few groups on the Balkans who readily converted to Islam. Ironically, Irecently read that many Albanians nowadays would reassume their greek names and reconvert in order to get a greek "greencard"....

This is not so!
Basically there are 2 Albanian groups.  One (the majority) was easily converted to Islam while the other remained (orthodox) christian, alongwith the greek population. There is also a small catholic minority.Albanians do say that they are Illyrians and related in a sense with the greeks.
Today's South Albania (in greek geography: North Epirus)  was inhabited by greeks (some 400.000 regarded as minority). They spoke greek, had greek names, some greek schools and churches (but not during the Hozha period)  These greeks were easily to come as immigrants, after the collapse of Albania's communist regime, since they had the status of greek origin. It is sure that
among them surely there were and some muslims disguished as greeks  just to get easily the greencards etc. Some managed to do so, other did not.

As for the parrots: I think it is from an amazon miniatures set with a naked princecc declined on couch complete with hookah and a parrot. Today I could not find this set in amazon's website (as all miniatures from Legends of Araby system).   

[former user]

I apologize
I certainly can't make detailed statements, since I am not greek.
With greek in the broader sense I mean ethnic groups who at the transition from the eastern roman empire to the Byzantine empire spoke greek and would cover from Asia Minor to somewhere in Illyria. I am aware that the term today is seen in a narrower sense.
In my broader perspective, I would equal Greek=Byzantine, with local differences.
As I read, the greek minority in Albania is very strong.
I am not that firm in greek history to really know how much of Todays' borders are owed to Ottoman regional subdivisions and the Hellenic independence, WWI etc.

(oh, and please let's not start the "Macedonia" discussion too) 

[argsilverson]

I apologize

No need to, at least for me.

With greek in the broader sense

Agree with you

(oh, and please let's not start the "Macedonia" discussion too) 

Ditto

I am quite unhappy, though, since my small remark about Foundry's miniatures has triggered such an exchange of messages, mostly between me and former user. Sorry, guys for this.

In order to come back in the sense of the titled of the thread, I will add:
Rifraf miniatures is planning a pack of Rifian command that includes a Raisuli !!!

BTW former user, do you know the manufacturer of the pentecaris children?

[former user]

I am sorry, these are not my miniatures, but @Dragoman's - try a PM.

our small discussion may have been a bit OT, but it shows the problem of using miniatures generally seen as "oriental"  (fez, wide pants). For me it was a good lesson into recruitment policies of the late ottoman empire, but I apologize to those who see it as too much OT.

It would appear that both gamers and sculptors tend to mix ethnic peculiarities (or is it the general "oriental" fashion of the late 19th C??)

[argsilverson]

former user
if your group wants to invest in enrichment of this game, I would reccomend to add some minis:
.- askari miniatures: Sultan guards (i already provided some link in an earlier post). they are portrayed exactly as per the sultan's guard in the film, i.e. with spahi-like uniform. Alas there is no guards with MG (but according to the film they did not manage to use them.
.- perry miniatures: bashi-bouzouks

.- I cannot, though,  recommend any miniatures for the sailors marching band!

[argsilverson]

It would appear that both gamers and sculptors tend to mix ethnic peculiarities (or is it the general "oriental" fashion of the late 19th C??)

it sounds that you have seen my earlier message while I was modifying it.

anyhow I believe that this is done due to lack of proper research sometimes.
Anyhow it was a lovely game (photo report) and I feel I would like to participate sometime. I always wanted to make some similar game.
Which rules did you use?

[former user]

.... I forgot 
possibly "the sword and the flame"...

I am not that much into oriental miniatures, but in case I would be certainly interested in the Perry Bashi Bouzouk and the conquest (Brigade?) arabs