Bring out your Basmachi images!

[Captain Blood]

Hear Hear!
You don't get learned, insightful debate like this on other forums.
Keep it up, you chaps.

[Aaron]

I'll third that. This is a subject in which I am immensely interested, but woefully ignorant. I am used to less civilized forum behavior though. Could one of you please throw in a personal insult or perhaps some pedantry? 

[Hammers]

And I'll fourth it.

[Earther]

Fifthed.

Fascinating discussion.

[Ignatieff]

I'm not sure whether Ignatieff is being sarcastic or not, but I'm running out of steam anyway.

Not at all, in common with many others loving it and learning a lot!  Thanks again

[carlos marighela]

Speaking as someone who, in their distant past, once instructed in such things let me add a few points.

Machine guns of the era were mostly heavy beasts. Contemporary Vickers and Maxims with associated paraphanalia weighed between 70-100 pounds. Contemporary evidence is that when such weapons were employed by other tribal armies, usually captured, they became prestige items. This, combined with their relative immobility meant they could be a two edged sword.

Depending on what machinegun you are talking about, the mechanism ranged from the relatively simple (by modern standards) to fiendishly complex, the Madsen being a prime example of the latter. You can teach somone to squeeze a trigger in a few minutes. They won't be terribly effective but they can fire the gun. You can teach someonethe rudiments of stripping a gun in a few hours, altough it will take some practice for them to do it efficiently. To get an effective machine gunner, typically you run courses that run weeks. Of course its unlikely they will need all the associated theory of range finding, enfildae, defilade, plunging vs grazing fire, indirect fire etc. Its also unlikely these people would need instruction onthe more complex bits of kit like clinometers, even if they were supplied. Naturally the results are affected by the technical skills of the person being taught and in this case the language and technical skills of the instructor.

This however isn't the real problem...

[carlos marighela]

The real problem is the servicing of the weapon. The action of a Maxim for instance is relatively simple compared to say an M60 or a GPMG but even so I should imagine pretty complex for a Central Asian tribesman. Yes you can teach most people to field strip a gun. The problem is when things break. Even today, the average soldier isn't taught to do much more than strip his weapon for cleaning, in act it's often discouraged, to prevent them playing silly buggers with the mechanism. As an act of casual cruelty a colleague and I would pull apart the feed mechanism and other sundry parts of machineguns being cleaned by soldiers undergoing their initial employment training and then look at their dismay when we told them to clean and reassemble the component parts.

For most complex servicing an armourer is required, one with tools and spare parts. How many tribal armies, even with a stiffening of ex soldiers have these?

[carlos marighela]

Oh I should add I'n not a cruel bugger by nature. Stripping the weapon beyond their skill level imparted a lesson, don't piss about with the gun, it's a wepaon not a toy, if you have a serious problem, get an armourer.

[cuprum]

Thanks all for attention to our discussion!
  I am glad, if you have found for yourselves the new interesting information.
  Mark, I after all too not the expert-historian. I collected this information for work on the miniatures of 28 mm. I only want that my figures would be as much as possible authentic historically.
  I do not know, how at Basmachis the question was solved with repair and service of machine guns. But after all too it is necessary to serve and grease rifles? Somehow they did it.
  I think, Basmachi used, basically, easy machine guns. At distant transitions on mountains and deserts this weapon is much more convenient. I have photo from museums where the weapon taken at Basmachis as trophies is exposed. I will lay out a part of these photos more low. There easy machine guns, a photo of heavy machine guns at Basmachis I are presented only has not found. Though the reference to a photo of the mountain gun taken at Basmachis I above has given.
  Still I have some photo Basmachis, come over to the side of Red army. Pay attention – they are armed by English rifles!

  The weapon and equipment Basmachis (trophies of Red army). A photo from various museums.




  Were Basmachis, come over to the side of the Soviet power.

[carlos marighela]

The gun in the uppermost photo is the infamous Chauchat, a French light machine gun/ automatic rifle. Never a very reliable wepaon in any of its variants, I pity the poor Basmachi who was armed with it. Very unlikely to have been supplied by Britain, they were never in British service and ammunition supply would have been problematic. The Lewis is a possibilty and would be of some use to a guerilla force.

Curiously the sword appears to be a Chinese executioners sword of the type wielded by various Do or Die Warlord units.

[Hammers]

  The weapon and equipment Basmachis (trophies of Red army). A photo from various museums.

What a treasure trove! Where is this museum?

By the way, the light machine gun in the top field in the picture is, by all evidence, a French 'Chauchat' and it was all but easy to use. A real piece of shit by most accounts, which is probably why the French passed it on to the Americans and apparently also the Basmachi.

Also interesting to see that they used Chinese 'big swords'.

[Von Stroheim]

Brilliant stuff Cuprum - can't wait to see your miniatures.

[Hammers]

The gun in the uppermost photo is the infamous Chauchat, a French light machine gun/ automatic rifle. Never a very reliable wepaon in any of its variants, I pity the poor Basmachi who was armed with it. Very unlikely to have been supplied by Britain, they were never in British service and ammunition supply would have been problematic. The Lewis is a possibilty and would be of some use to a guerilla force.

Curiously the sword appears to be a Chinese executioners sword of the type wielded by various Do or Die Warlord units.

Bah, you beat me to it. Almost identical posts. Great minds...

[traveller]

Now were talking! Great images and a great debate. I never hoped for such an intensive discussion. Thanks!

[Mark Plant]

I have read a book review of the following book:

Baymirza Hayit: Basmatschi. Nationaler Kampf Turkestans in den Jahren 1917 bis 1934. Köln, Dreisam-Verlag (1993)

It suggests that some parts are quite useful to wargamers, covering weapons and tactics. Has anyone read it?