Flagship Games Pirates 3rd edition?

[grubman]

I've been thinking of toying around with some Pirate miniatures.  I really like the idea of a game where you have both ship to ship action and boarding action, where both are important. 

Scale isn't a huge issue, I could go either 15mm or 25mm.

In any case, Pirates! sounds like it might be the ticket, plus it has fantasy races and magic ect.  So that's a bonus.  BUt I can't find many opinions, or a comprehensive review of the game anywhere.  So any opinions?  The more in depth the better. 

I'm really looking for something that is easy to learn and play, but has some good opprotunity for tactics, and is fun! Realism or historical accuracy aren't important to me at all.

Thanks.

[Schogun]

Pirates! is a great rules set. Covers both land and ship-to-ship action. Thorough without being overly detailed. Historical as well as fantasy races. Point system with ship construction rules. We've run games with 10+ people with no problem.

Highly recommended!

[Alfrik]

Have played the game many times. Easy and fast. House rules can be added easily to cover any special situational fight you might want to play.

[richarDISNEY]

Its a beauty of a ruleset.  Not too deep, but if you want, a campaign method to keep your pirate crew happy and helps the replay a bunchy.

We played this about twice a week for about three years (First edition...), and never got bored with it.

[grubman]

Maybe you guys can help me with a few questions?

-Can you use 15mm or 25/28mm?  If I'm correct, it's written for 25/28mm, but I might want to go 15mm without encountering any problems.

-Is the ship to ship and man to man the smae scale?  Do you use the same ships full of miniatures to fight the boarding action battles...or do you use small scale ships for the naval part and 25mm for the boarding actions only?

-How big an area do you generally need to comfortably play with 2-4 or 6 people?

-Is it fleet, or can you run 1 ship on 1 ship without it being cheezy?

-About how long does it take to play an "average" game?

Thanks

[Skrapwelder]

Its like skirmish gaming for ships.

You can play fleet actions or just a couple of ships. I've played the gamut and its always been fun. Obviously the more ships you have the longer its going to take to play a game but you can play out an action with three or four ships on a side in an evening easily.

Ships and men are the same scale. What you see on the deck is what you have to throw into a boarding action.

There are no specific conversions for 15's in the rules but there's no reason you couldn't play with 15's. Leave the ranges and movement the same or reduce as you like.

I would say a 6'x8' table for 25mm is as small as you would want to get and be able to do any maneuvering. With 15's you could go smaller.

Hope that helps.

[abu iskander]

Personally I have found Legends of the High Seas very enjoyable.  Easy to play; rules for ships, boarding, raiding, fights at the tavern, cannibals. It doesn't really have the fantasy angle but there is some opportunity for a bit of role play with the main heroes.

[grubman]

Hope that helps.

Yes.  Thanks.

One more question...are Zombies, or undead one of the fantasy races?

Personally I have found Legends of the High Seas very enjoyable. 

That would be the second choice.  I have and like Legends of the Old West, so I pretty much know what it's like...but I want something with a different feel.

[Luckyjoe]

Undead are indeed one of the Fantasy races available.

Luckyjoe

[Doc Twilight]

Afraid I have to disagree with the assessments here, Grub. While Pirates is a fun game, I think the writing leaves a lot to be desired. It's not well organized (at least, 3rd edition isn't), and the layout could stand with some work. No quick play sheet, either.

So, that's my first issue with it. For a more concrete example...

When Mina purchased the "starter set" they had as a deal a few years ago as a gift for me, I found myself confused by the layout. I decided to go to the source and ask for help with a few issues that I couldn't quite clarify in my mind. Their response (and I  kid you not) was, "it's best learned by coming to one of the games run by the authors." At the time, we lived in DC, so getting to a con with the Flagship guys (they generally stuck to the West coast, though they did apparently go to Hurricon once or twice) was not likely. Right about the time we moved to California, the company sort of started to disentegrate, so they stopped going to shows on any regular basis.

Mina sums it up nicely, when she describes the game.  The problem, to whit, is that to understand the game, and how to run it appropriately, one has to be the author, or to know one of his gaming group.

At any rate...

Another issue with the rules that I have is one of practicality - adapting ships -other- than the ships they had statted up for the game proved difficult.  Essentially, the models are all half sized (which works fine for the tabletop, gives more maneuver room), but trying to figure out how, for instance, a ship with more than eight guns would translate appropriately to the game was very difficult. Not a great thing, since many of our ships were then from other manufacturers (still are).
There was a promise that this would be clarified, particularly since so many different companies make 28mm ships, but this never happened.

So, if you want to use the wide selection of models out there, be aware that there are very few guidelines for building ships that work within the game and are on appropriate power level with the ships that Flagship produced. Our DC group did attempt to build ships using the ship construction rules in the 3rd edition book, but we found that they simply did not produce balanced designs.

Finally, there was the matter of period focus. Yeah, this is a minor thing to most people, but it sort of bugged Mina and I, being very interested in the Golden Age of Piracy. Pirates! is not a game set during that period, but instead, about a hundred years earlier, during the Armada era/late Renaissance. As a result, you've got a lot of weird crews and ship types that actually wouldn't have shown up in the classic "pirate period" that we all think of, and many of the crew models were simply too anachronistic to use alongside the more appropriate 17th-18th century pirate ranges. When I am invited to play a "Pirate" game, I envision Errol Flynn and battles in the Caribbean - NOT the Ottomans fighting the Knights of Malta - but that's essentially where most of the Pirates! setting takes its cues. Again, a minor thing, but it did matter to us.

That said, the Fantasy races seem to work fine, and I will say that the Pirates Ancients Rules, which are also included in 3rd edition, are actually quite nice, comparatively speaking, as they are weighed down with fewer special rules, exceptions, etc. I would certainly consider using Pirates! for doing something like Actium, or another ancient naval battle, but as for "Golden Age of Piracy" type scenarios... meh, I'll give it a miss. Will play if somebody runs it, but not something I'd go out of my way for.

Just thought you'd appreciate a different perspective,

Alex

[grubman]

Just thought you'd appreciate a different perspective,

I certainly do!!  Thank you.

"It's great" or "It sucks" are easy to write, and don't tell a perspective buyer much.  Taking the time to explain likes and dislikes really helps make a decision.  For example, I would have thought it would be a "golden age of pirates" game as well, and that is something that definately would have disapointed me.

I certainly don't want to strain my brain trying to figure out the rules either, or have to mess with things like ship construction or conversions...I sort of want to buy a game, read for a few hours, put together some ships and crews and play a game.

[cianty]

That is a great in-depth review, Doc! Many thanks for that. Although I most likely wouldn't have bought the rules anyways, I know now that I am not missing anything.

[n815e]

Mina sums it up nicely, when she describes the game.  The problem, to whit, is that to understand the game, and how to run it appropriately, one has to be the author, or to know one of his gaming group.

I actually find this to be fairly false.  The rules could certainly have been better written, but they are hardly incomprehensible or require the presence of the authors/friends of authors.  We all have our own levels of learning and comprehension, but a couple of read-throughs of the book are enough to understand the rules and how to play the game.

Another issue with the rules that I have is one of practicality - adapting ships -other- than the ships they had statted up for the game proved difficult.  Essentially, the models are all half sized (which works fine for the tabletop, gives more maneuver room), but trying to figure out how, for instance, a ship with more than eight guns would translate appropriately to the game was very difficult. Not a great thing, since many of our ships were then from other manufacturers (still are).

The game is actually easily adaptable to other ships.  They used a 1:10 representation.  1 crewman = 10 crewmen historically.  1 gun = 10 guns.  To convert other companies' ships you just have to keep in mind that ships are broken up into areas.  The deck may have perhaps three regions.  All in all, it isn't that difficult.

[n815e]

Finally, there was the matter of period focus. Yeah, this is a minor thing to most people, but it sort of bugged Mina and I, being very interested in the Golden Age of Piracy. Pirates! is not a game set during that period, but instead, about a hundred years earlier, during the Armada era/late Renaissance.

The rules as originally written were for fantasy naval gaming.  They decided to add the historical stuff later on and it works just fine.  You don't have to use the Mediterranean ship types and crews to play the game.  You can just stick to the Carribean ship types and crews and have a fine game with that.  The fact that they present a broad historical option is actually quite nice, since one hardly ever sees any game address Middle Eastern pirate games.

And since Grubman did write that realism and historical accuracy take a back seat to fun, I think he should check out these rules.  They really are the only rules out there that have good "skirmish" ship to ship encounters.

[grubman]

I don't supose there is a nice actual play write-up with pictures anywhwere?