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Author Topic: The Assault Group  (Read 9970 times)

Offline VonAkers

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The Assault Group
« on: August 20, 2010, 07:14:24 AM »
Hi Guys
I was looking for some different Russian Irregular cavalry for my BOB Russian White Army,and I stumbled on to some from Assault Grop.
They are Renaissance Cossacks but could be used for BOB,I think with a few mods ..
Has anyone seem the lead and how do they compare to Copplestones ( the horses seem a bit off)
Cheers

Offline Orctrader

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Re: The Assault Group
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2010, 08:22:27 AM »
They are Renaissance Cossacks...

I painted these



(Image from the TAG site so if it doesn't show here - go and take a look in the gallery, under "Orctrader.")

Good figures.  A tad smaller than Copplestone, but horses as well as people come in different sizes.   ;)
The bases are 25mm x 50mm so that should give you a guide.

Offline Steve F

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Re: The Assault Group
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2010, 09:39:09 AM »
Incidentally, VonAkers, before setting up Copplestone Castings, Mark Copplestone sculpted a range of cossacks for Foundry (18th century/Napoleonic).  Usefully, he did foot and mounted versions of the same figures.

Offline Mark Plant

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Re: The Assault Group
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2010, 10:09:15 AM »
I can't even begin to imagine what you think these might resemble in the Russian White armies. They are Ukrainian Cossacks, and some of them might do business as 1918 Ukrainian Nationalists (with weapon modifications) but little else.

When you say "irregular" cavalry, what do you have in mind?

Offline VonAkers

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Re: The Assault Group
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2010, 10:41:44 AM »
Hi Orc Trader
Mate thanks for the reply and pictures.
They do look great.
Apart from the pistols they could easily be Irregular Cossacks,from that period.
Cheers

Offline Lowtardog

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Re: The Assault Group
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2010, 10:49:49 AM »
Hi Orc Trader
Mate thanks for the reply and pictures.
They do look great.
Apart from the pistols they could easily be Irregular Cossacks,from that period.
Cheers

I would second Steve F the Foundry ones are very nice too

Offline VonAkers

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Re: The Assault Group
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2010, 12:09:00 PM »
Hi Mark
Mate Lighten up.
I cant see where they say "'Ukrainian Cossacks" only..
Admittedly I dont know of any specific uniform requirements  that restrict ,certian types to one area, and no other.
And unless you did your PHD in Russian Cossack Uniforms In the RCW,you dont either.
I am fairly certain that not all Cossacks in the RCW or BOB were all Regulars.
I am going to field some as Irregular Local cossacks/mounted Partizans /local allied Bandits/White Refugees.
In the CLA lists White Armies may have some Irregular cavalry.
To my mind I do find the typical Cossack Cavalry to have ( to my taste) a  much too regular look, I want some more colour and panashe.

I read someone said once "It's a great period if you want games of movement and sweeping actions, with crap troops in colourful uniforms"

I happen to agree with that bloke 100%,I also Agree with him about  not having too much armour. :)
Cheers

Offline Orctrader

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Re: The Assault Group
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2010, 02:19:43 PM »
Thinking about "alternatives" West Wind do some in their...Vampire Wars range - I think.  "Evil Cossacks."  I have some and they are good too.  None painted though.

IIRC you get one mounted and one foot figure in each pack - but there were no pictures on the WW site.  (Got mine in a CMON shop sale - glad I did.)

Offline Mark Plant

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Re: The Assault Group
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2010, 09:11:46 PM »
I cant see where they say "'Ukrainian Cossacks" only..

And unless you did your PHD in Russian Cossack Uniforms In the RCW,you dont either.

Russian Cossack uniforms are, as it happens, an area of particular interest.
http://www.pygmywars.com/barendspages/barendmain.html

For Russians to dress this way would be like for the Welsh to start wearing tartan kilts. It is a particularly Ukrainian style of dress (although long abandoned by 1917, a few Ukrainian units revived it briefly).

The figures aren't labelled as such because in the early periods the Cossacks only came from the Ukraine. (You don't need to label Samauri as "Japanese Samauri, either.)

Quote
I am fairly certain that not all Cossacks in the RCW or BOB were all Regulars.

Well, that depends on your definition of "regular", I suppose. Some were partisan behind the lines in the RCW. But then they wouldn't be fighting alongside regulars. 

The Cossacks were very proud of their status as part of the regular Tsarist army, and they continued to dress as such for the duration of the fighting. This was relatively easy, as they wore their host uniform in peacetime, so had it immediately on deciding to form a unit. Even if they had wanted to fight in fancy dress, where would they get it from?

In general terms it is not useful to distinguish "regular" from "irregular" Cossacks. They dressed the same and fought the same.

Quote
To my mind I do find the typical Cossack Cavalry to have ( to my taste) a  much too regular look, I want some more colour and panashe.

I read someone said once "It's a great period if you want games of movement and sweeping actions, with crap troops in colourful uniforms"

Quote mining will get your nowhere  ;) . I have always been one for historical plausibility (as opposed to strict accuracy). I've never understood making stuff up, and then pretending it is real.

If you want this look, why not paint an Asiatic unit? Kazakhs or Kirghiz or Mongol. They all fought alongside the Whites in Siberia.

Or Annenkov's black hussars (which were Cossack): http://militera.lib.ru/h/kakurin_vatsetis/31.jpg

You can field colourful uniforms without resorting to something 300 years out of date! It's like rolling out a Boer War unit in red shirts and topees in WWII because you find your British uniforms a bit dull. I'm not kidding - the anachronism is that great.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2010, 09:15:05 PM by Mark Plant »

Offline twrchtrwyth

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Re: The Assault Group
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2010, 09:22:35 PM »
For Russians to dress this way would be like for the Welsh to start wearing tartan kilts.

Well, they should be fine then as the Welsh do wear kilts.

Presenting the St. David's Welsh National tartan Kilt.

He that trades Liberty for Security will soon find that he has neither.

Benjamin Franklin


Offline fitterpete

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Re: The Assault Group
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2010, 09:31:47 PM »
I'd use them for BOB bandits or irregulars no problem,regulars probably not.Tunic,pants ,fur hat yep Russians.

Offline VonAkers

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Re: The Assault Group
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2010, 03:12:50 AM »
Hi Mark
Thanks for the info on the regular status of most of the Cossacks I didnt realise that.
Didnt realise you were the author of that Pygmy Wars thing, I already have used that as ispiration for my  Markov Officer Regiment .
I think you are still  missing the main point a bit here .
I Still want a more Irregular Look for the Irregular Cavalry units in my Army,along the bandit line /partizan /local militia theme.
I agree with what fitter pete says in his post.
So If you have a answer to the oringinal question great if not...
Also dont be so precious and dramatic about the uniform differences ,are you an actor perchance?? lol
We once  had someone once throw a similar comment about that uniform not being correct in 1815 for a Waterloo Game,for that unit blah blah blah.
He proudly pointed this out and strutted away ,and never once  saw or commented on, the 2500 figures worth $40000 ,or the  18 x 6 Table with wonderfull terrain with 6 guys happy as pigs in  the proverbial..... :'(
Please post up some pictures of your figures so I can be inspired and historically Plausibleas possible .
Cheers
 Ps Better still please send me some info if you can on the other units cavalry types you mentioned.( Asiatic unit? Kazakhs or Kirghiz or Mongol)
Thanks in advance.

Offline Mark Plant

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Re: The Assault Group
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2010, 04:04:57 AM »
I have no issues with silly units. I fielded pink "mouseketeers" with Mickey Mouse flag in a Seven Years War campaign once.

I just get very scratchy when people suggest that there is some historical basis for the silliness, rather than just accepting that it is silly from the get-go.

I find it particularly hard when it goes with a sort of deliberate blindness to the era in question. Where anything goes because everyone east of the Oder is just a furry hatted wog really.

Quote
Tunic,pants ,fur hat yep Russians.

 :'(

---------------------------------------------------
I'm still digging on the Asiatics: it's quite hard to find reliable information. I hope to put some of it on PygmyWars, but it won't be soon.

I know the more western of the Asiatic nationalities (Bashkirs, Tartars and Kalmyks) fought in standard Russian dress, for the most part, when they could get it. But even then they wore some traditional hats and jackets, especially in winter. 

The only one unit that did definitely dress in traditional garb were the Turkmen: plate G2 in the Osprey Russian Army 1914-1917 (they had been Kornilov's bodyguard for a while). They fought with the Whites in Transcaspia (Kazakhstan) in the RCW.

Information on the more eastern: Kirghiz, Kazakhs and Mongols is harder to get. I know that the Urals Host recruited a few Kazakhs, although they never sent them against the Reds. It can be hard to distinguish the other groups (Kirghiz, Tajiks etc) because the Russians tended to lump them all together.

Semenov had a decent number of Mongols though, and they are your best option as a BoB gamer. They wore normal Mongolian clothes. Actually, many still do.

Offline carlos marighela

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Re: The Assault Group
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2010, 05:50:46 AM »
Personally I would have thought painting the Copplestone Cossacks alone would provide colour aplenty. Blue breeches, with various host stripes, coloured pogoni, bashlyk edging and for the Caucasian types, a variety of colours for their cherkeskas, even more for the beshmets and metal decoration for the bullet holders. Easy enough to provide variety within a unit and quite a bit of colour without going over the top.

I purchased a mixed bag of RCW figures some years ago and the seller included a group of the Foundry Cossacks. Most remain unused. Nice figures but largely unsuited to the RCW. Looking at the TAG group above, I'd be tempted to use the first, third and fifth figures from the left with weapons changes but really only as Ukrainians or maybe Makhnovite guerillas.

I'm with Mark on this one  but of course people are free to buy whatever toys appeal and paint them as they choose.
Em dezembro de '81
Botou os ingleses na roda
3 a 0 no Liverpool
Ficou marcado na história
E no Rio não tem outro igual
Só o Flamengo é campeão mundial
E agora seu povo
Pede o mundo de novo

Offline cuprum

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Re: The Assault Group
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2010, 08:13:13 AM »
Here very interesting uniforms of soldiers from a division of ataman Annenkov.
This form really rushed also these military units really took part in fights with Red in Siberia and Central Asia.
And imaginations are completely not necessary:

http://kolchakiya.narod.ru/uniformology/Annenkov_units.htm

Look the information on this Russian site:
http://papercraft.mybb.ru/viewforum.php?id=2
This site is devoted paper soldiers. But there are many interesting photos and the information on Red and to White armies.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2010, 08:24:09 AM by cuprum »

 

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