TW&T, Coffin for 7 Brothers and Rules of Engagement

[dijit]

I've had TW&T for a while now, and I've just tried reading it for the second time, but have yet again been put off by the wording and seemingly hideous complexity of it. It might be just me and actually trying it out might prove it to be otherwise. But looking through the different threads Coffin for 7 brothers and Rules of engagement get mentioned very regularly, so I was wondering if anyone would care giving a comparison of these two sets to TW&T. Are they easier to understand/get into? Do they have as many tables, etc? How well do they play solo?
Thanks in advance,
Duncan

[revford]

I've not played TW&T, but I do like RoE, not sure how it would work in a solo game.

For that sort of thing, or for games with all the players on one side vs the system, I'd suggest having a look at NUTS! from Two Hour Wargames.

http://www.angelfire.com/az3/twohourwargames/ww2.htm

There is a free version, Chain Reaction, which just has the basic rules without all the specialist WWII stuff that will give you a good idea of how the game works.

http://www.angelfire.com/az3/twohourwargames/free.htm


RoE is a nice game, I'm just not sure how it would work as a solo thing.

[midismirnoff]

Agree with revford on NUTS/CR being the best solo-thing around. Reading NUTS/CR is easy, but getting hold of it is quite difficult, as it is a game on its own.
TW&T is also quite different from other things around, and I think it works best with an umpire and experienced players (so, you don't have an opponent, what's the chance in getting an umpire?).
On the other hand both RoE and DH/C7B are quite streamlined with other sets; that said I'd strongly suggest Disposable Heroes for the following:
- uses d10
- original and catchy coherency/movement rules
- historically accurate army lists, and vehicles (maybe even a bit too much these latter).

[SBMiniaturesGuy]

"RoE is a nice game, I'm just not sure how it would work as a solo thing."

I tried RoE, can't say I cared for it. Combat, movement and how terrain is treated seems more appropriate to a platoon/company level game than a skirmish game. For example, IIRC once part of a squad or fire team enters terrain, the rest of the squad gets that terrain defense bonus as it is assumed that soldiers will seek the best cover. That's great for a platoon/company game where one figure represents several people, but for a skirmish game I think WYSIWYG is better -- if there's enough room for the whole squad to get into the terrain, fine, but ya can't all get cover bonuses if there's not enough cover on the table! Also the way they handled some things like spotting was odd to me. A scenario I played in had special forces guys against Taliban-types. The SF guys, given the way spotting is linked to morale and such, literally walked right by some bad guys 10" away, in the open, and couldn't be spotted. I think they are trying to simulate how highly trained troops can move stealthily -- but come on, seems a bit off. Combat seemed very dicey based -- different types of dice to represent morale/training grades, with defensive dice being thrown to offset the attacker's dice. There's a point where if you build your unit properly it just about can't be hurt by anything! Ok, *maybe* for a company level game where you're abstracting unit-level casualties more than a skirmish game, but this mechanism was weird to me. I had a unit if 8 Taliban attack 4 SF guys. The Taliban used, I think d8s, the SF guys I think had d12s. I got my basic one die per figure, the SF guys had a bunch of special bonuses that piled up and ended up with more dice than my attacking dice, so what was the point of even rolling? I could roll my 8xd8, but he got like 10x d12!!

If they rename it a company level game these mechanisms make sense -- but not for skirmish. NUTS!, Battleground WW2 are much better skirmish games. NUTS! is my preferred now, and I have also played DH/Coffin for 7 Brothers.

[Tom Reed]

My local group has played ROE a couple of times, but our rules of choice are Disposable Heroes/Coffin for Seven Brothers and their many supplements. We once ran "A Bridge Too Far" in 54mm using them.

[delta6ct]

I'll give a short description of the candidates, since I've played all of them.

DH/CF7B: d10 system. The players roll for initiative, then alternate activating groups. Has fewer charts than TW&T and is easier to learn. Not particularly good for solo. Very good tank combat rules, but I do not care for the infantry rules. Gunfire is too deadly and it is too easy to rally troops from pinned/supression. Troops tend to drop like flies but are unfazed by the fact that their comrades are all dead. Also, leadership and troop quality are not particularly important. Fun game but the least realistic of all, IMHO.

ROE: d6 system. Haven't played this one in awhile, but I recall it being IGOUGO. Fewer charts than TW&T, about the same as DH. Easy to learn. Has a vaguely FOW/WH40K feel to it for some reason. Probably the least suitable for solo gaming. The armor rules were ok as were the infantry rules. I thought that games just ended up being tedious because you have to make a bunch of die rolls anytime a squad fires. Roll to see how many shots the LMG and SMG get. Roll to hit. Roll for grenades to hit. Roll to see if the grenades which miss still do some damage. Roll to wound. Roll to save. Something to that effect.

NUTS: d6 system. The games uses a modified IGOUGO system wherby a player activates his soldiers, then his opponent activates, but the players might not be able to use all of their soldiers. This game has the most charts and is harder to learn (IMHO) than TW&T. Combat is deadly but morale still plays a role. Very good for solo gaming. The game is fun with about 1 squad each. Platoon vs. platoon games with MMG's and tanks, etc. get complicated.

I personally favor TW&T because I feel it is the most realistic, it plays very quickly and leadership and troop quality matters in the game. The rules are not difficult but they are different, so they take some time to get used to. I think it's worth it. Hope that helps some.

Mike

[twrchtrwyth]

"RoE is a nice game, I'm just not sure how it would work as a solo thing."

I tried RoE, can't say I cared for it. Combat, movement and how terrain is treated seems more appropriate to a platoon/company level game than a skirmish game. For example, IIRC once part of a squad or fire team enters terrain, the rest of the squad gets that terrain defense bonus as it is assumed that soldiers will seek the best cover. That's great for a platoon/company game where one figure represents several people, but for a skirmish game I think WYSIWYG is better -- if there's enough room for the whole squad to get into the terrain, fine, but ya can't all get cover bonuses if there's not enough cover on the table! Also the way they handled some things like spotting was odd to me. A scenario I played in had special forces guys against Taliban-types. The SF guys, given the way spotting is linked to morale and such, literally walked right by some bad guys 10" away, in the open, and couldn't be spotted. I think they are trying to simulate how highly trained troops can move stealthily -- but come on, seems a bit off. Combat seemed very dicey based -- different types of dice to represent morale/training grades, with defensive dice being thrown to offset the attacker's dice. There's a point where if you build your unit properly it just about can't be hurt by anything! Ok, *maybe* for a company level game where you're abstracting unit-level casualties more than a skirmish game, but this mechanism was weird to me. I had a unit if 8 Taliban attack 4 SF guys. The Taliban used, I think d8s, the SF guys I think had d12s. I got my basic one die per figure, the SF guys had a bunch of special bonuses that piled up and ended up with more dice than my attacking dice, so what was the point of even rolling? I could roll my 8xd8, but he got like 10x d12!!

If they rename it a company level game these mechanisms make sense -- but not for skirmish. NUTS!, Battleground WW2 are much better skirmish games. NUTS! is my preferred now, and I have also played DH/Coffin for 7 Brothers.

Whatever game you played, it wasn't RoE.

[Rich J]

He was playing Force on Force/ Ambush Alley ... but not sensibly with those stats

Talking of which though Force on Force (Ambush Alley) works very well as a solo game, as does NUTS ... ROE is a very good game but not as solo orientated as there is very little auto reaction/movement in it etc.