Vichy French Moroccan Spahis

[carlos marighela]

It get's quite cool in the mountains. especially of an evening. Lebanon used to market Beirut as somewhere that you could ski in the morning and go the beach in the afternoon. There is plate in one of the Osprey's that shows a wonderful combiantion of greatcoat and shorts, topped off with a tropical helmet.

If you were doing Vichy North Africa in 1/72 then the old Itaeleri French were basically wearing Vichy uniforms of the 1941/42 pattern. This caused a lot of confusion amongst collectors when they first came out.

In 28mm I'd suggest suitable Free French in shorts with head swaps for tropical helmets. Artizan and IIRc Empress both do some for their Italian ranges. They won't be quite right but near enough is good enough.

[Tannenberg]

England's Last War with France by Colin Smith is the only book I know specifically on the war with Vichy. Not having read it I can't comment, but it is on my to buy list.

If you think finding sources in English is hard, try sourcing the figures! British and Free French aren't to difficult, but the French are non-existent as far as I know, whatever the scale. It's going to be hard to pass off figures in greatcoats for the Levant in Summer. 

It's such a pity that there's such a difficulty in sourcing books and figures for this more than interesting campaign.  However, I've taken the step of getting in touch, via email, with 'La Légion étrangère'.  So fingers crossed, I will get a reply from them in the not so distant future
I think I will wait for a structured review of 'England's Last War with France' before I will add this to my ever increasing pile of books
Anything I get back from 'La Légion étrangère', I'll post here on the site or pass it on to all those interested
 
 

[Tannenberg]

It get's quite cool in the mountains. especially of an evening. Lebanon used to market Beirut as somewhere that you could ski in the morning and go the beach in the afternoon. There is plate in one of the Osprey's that shows a wonderful combiantion of greatcoat and shorts, topped off with a tropical helmet.

If you were doing Vichy North Africa in 1/72 then the old Itaeleri French were basically wearing Vichy uniforms of the 1941/42 pattern. This caused a lot of confusion amongst collectors when they first came out.

In 28mm I'd suggest suitable Free French in shorts with head swaps for tropical helmets. Artizan and IIRc Empress both do some for their Italian ranges. They won't be quite right but near enough is good enough.

Well worth investigating further, with regards to your suggestions, for the figures there.  However, I'd probabaly end up with a knife and some putty to make them look more the part. Mmmm, going to Beirut for some skiing in the morning and then the beach in the afternoon sounds splendid

[Arlequín]

Without a doubt it can get damn cold there. The only drawback is if you've got your Brits etc in shorts, the French will look odd in greatcoats.

Good call by Carlos on using the Empress tropical helmet on Free French, your Legionnaires would probably be identical for both sides in any case. It will be likely to be a case of mix and match, but Empress also do Adrian helmets too, which is helpful. It will make for a very unique collection.

Info is always useful to someone, so please do share anything La Legion sends!   

[Tannenberg]

Evening all
I have a little question about our Spahis friends....was the number two of the Chatellerault FM 24/29 light machine-gun team only armed with a pistol or would he have been armed like everyone else in their platoon.....and would he have carried the haversack with the ammunition magazines or would the gunner have?....I know, a silly question, but I'm curious,      

[Arlequín]

As I understand it, the No.2 should also have carried a pistol and would have carried the ammunition. In fact I imagine that all of the members of the demi-group containing the weapon would have carried extra ammo for it. However I recall reading somewhere that pistols were in short supply and that a rifle or carbine was issued instead... can't recall where though.

[Tannenberg]

As I understand it, the No.2 should also have carried a pistol and would have carried the ammunition. In fact I imagine that all of the members of the demi-group containing the weapon would have carried extra ammo for it. However I recall reading somewhere that pistols were in short supply and that a rifle or carbine was issued instead... can't recall where though.

Thanks for that Jim.  I also read somewhere that the French produced the excellent M1892 revolver but in very low numbers as the production of small arms was not given the highest of priorities.  Because of this, they brought in the Spanish produced Ruby pistol to make up for the lack of sidearms.  The carrying of a rifle or carbine would make excellent sense as well.  Making an educated guess here, I'd say the No2 of the Chatellerault FM 24/29, in the Spahis demi-group, would also be kitted out with the bandolier and carrying his MAS 36.
I've also just received a copy of the Osprey 'Men-at-Arms' book 'The French Army 1939-45' (book one).  It's a pretty good one and on page 35, it gives a lovely little break-down of a 'groupe de combat' with who was carrying what...excellent stuff!!!

[Tannenberg]

I have another little question....was the Havresac mod. 1924 worn around the waist or over the shoulder (or both)?  I think I am in danger of becoming an anorak, , but once more, the unquenchable desire for knowledge is biting at my heels .

[Arlequín]

Only 'in danger' of becoming an anorak? I think you should be able to wear one with pride by now. 

I haven't a clue to be honest, but if I had to take a guess, or carry one myself, it would be over the shoulder. Less uncomfortable and easier to put on and take off.

The carrying of a rifle or carbine would make excellent sense as well.  Making an educated guess here, I'd say the No2 of the Chatellerault FM 24/29, in the Spahis demi-group, would also be kitted out with the bandolier and carrying his MAS 36.

Bear in mind that the whole demi-group's task was to keep the LMG functional, be it carrying ammo for it, or ensuring its protection. The two or three man LMG team would be a new concept this early in the war and you should think in the context that the whole demi-group should be considered 'the LMG team'. So although there was a No.1 and a No.2 for the weapon, the other guys were also tasked with supporting roles, be it as ammo mules, or just watching their backs.

Being colonial units I'd suspect that the Lebel or Berthier would be the likely rifles or carbines carried, I understand that the MAS36 wasn't about in any great numbers outside of the prestige formations like the DLMs and first line metropolitan troops.
 

[Tannenberg]

Only 'in danger' of becoming an anorak? I think you should be able to wear one with pride by now. 

I haven't a clue to be honest, but if I had to take a guess, or carry one myself, it would be over the shoulder. Less uncomfortable and easier to put on and take off.

Yes, that's what I thought, but there's some pics from a lovely little French site (here's the link to the particular page I'm looking at.....
 
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20francaise/artisans%20c%20d/a%20chatellerault%20fm%2024%2029%20havresac%201924%20fr%20gb.htm

The second and third photos seem to make it look as if it were worn round the waist....
As to the anorak side of things, I fancy a nice yellow one, .

[Arlequín]

Perhaps it was both then, to distribute the weight better? That aside it's quite an impressive bit of kit, I'm looking for a Louis Vitton label somewhere. 

That will be another anorak over here too then... 

[Tannenberg]

Perhaps it was both then, to distribute the weight better? That aside it's quite an impressive bit of kit, I'm looking for a Louis Vitton label somewhere. 

That will be another anorak over here too then... 

Maybe we should start a 'Best Anorak' award at some point...worth thinking about

Have you ever seen any pics of an 8mm Hotchkiss machine gun mounted on a Mle1911 m.38 horse drawn carriage? This is proving to be a very very hard nut to crack....as is trying to find pics for the Mle1937 cavalry limber.

 

[Arlequín]

This might be the one...

http://www.tgca.net/french_connection_ii.htm

It's possible that the '37 model might just have had pneumatic tyres fitted?

Other than that I can't help, sorry 

[Tannenberg]

This might be the one...

http://www.tgca.net/french_connection_ii.htm

It's possible that the '37 model might just have had pneumatic tyres fitted?

Other than that I can't help, sorry 

That's a pretty interesting set-up with the Hotchkiss....I will have to make further investigations into this....I have seen something that had wagon wheels on it (the photos I have looks pre-Great War) and then there's one which is closer to the WW2 period with pneumatic tyres on it.  I have now recieved some very useful information from Daniel Guédras from the Musée des Spahis de Senlis, France.  It includes a very interesting photo of some Spahis with the Hotchkiss set up and ready...in the background are pack horses which have been used to transport it....and not an Mle1911 m.38 horse drawn carriage.  If you're interested, would you like to send me your email address, via the sites splendid pm facility, and I can pass on the info?  I've tried to insert the images on here, but, unfortunately, without any luck or success.

[David]

Hi Macro
Here is all i could find
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=112&t=158723