Vichy French Moroccan Spahis

[Tannenberg]

Hi Macro
Here is all i could find
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=112&t=158723

Thanks Dave......another piece of very useful and always handy information   I will be getting back in touch with Daniel Guédras from the Musée des Spahis de Senlis, France with regards to the Hotchkiss mounted on a horse drawn carriage.  The photo you've brought my attention to looks very, very interesting indeed.  It would be nice to know if this one was actually used in North Africa. I have to admit, the carriage does look remarkably like the one I've seen in the only photo I've managed to hunt down on the web, but with pneumatic tyres instead of the wooden spoked wheels.

[Arlequín]

Well found David! Even if it is the 13.2mm HMG version. 

Pack horses were the usual means of conveyance for the Hotchkiss in the Spanish Army in the 20s and 30s, so makes sense that they would be in the French too. In the Spanish army each weapon had 4 horses or mules to carry the weapon and ammo, with 11 men to serve the weapon, handle the animals, fetch and carry, and act as 'security' when the weapon was deployed.

With regard to cart-wheels and tyres, this was due to the process of mechanisation. Most cart-wheels were found to be too fragile to be towed behind motor transport, so most towed weapons had to be converted, along with their limbers. In the SCW this wasn't possible, so weapons were carried on the truck beds instead. In some cases the conversion resulted in a brand-new carriage or limber, in others just a bicycle type spoked wheel with tyres replaced the cart-wheel type.   

[Tannenberg]

Well found David! Even if it is the 13.2mm HMG version. 

Pack horses were the usual means of conveyance for the Hotchkiss in the Spanish Army in the 20s and 30s, so makes sense that they would be in the French too. In the Spanish army each weapon had 4 horses or mules to carry the weapon and ammo, with 11 men to serve the weapon, handle the animals, fetch and carry, and act as 'security' when the weapon was deployed.

With regard to cart-wheels and tyres, this was due to the process of mechanisation. Most cart-wheels were found to be too fragile to be towed behind motor transport, so most towed weapons had to be converted, along with their limbers. In the SCW this wasn't possible, so weapons were carried on the truck beds instead. In some cases the conversion resulted in a brand-new carriage or limber, in others just a bicycle type spoked wheel with tyres replaced the cart-wheel type.   

Yes, Dave's done a great job with regards to hunting this one down I've managed to get some more pics of the Mle1911 (which should now be in your posession and of which Dave will soon have too, ).  They look as if they were taken before WW1 and they're pretty good shots as well.  Even better, the images show the Hotchkiss mounted on it.  When I was searching for this, nothing was really coming up until I typed (in French) ''la voiture porte-mitrailliesue de cavalerie modele 1911''.  A bit of a mouthful, especially when your French is extremely rusty.  I will now have to make a point of brushing up on this particular language!!!! 

[David]

Hi Marco here are the french guns the Greeks used
Hellenic Canon 75mm M1908 Schneider.jpg (61.26 KiB) Viewed 1151 times
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=158435
Show ? french limber since i would think they would buy the limber as well as the gun?
David

[Arlequín]

Marco has sent me the pics to share with anyone interested in this. I've attempted to fill in on the descriptions where possible. Apologies for the ones that aren't strictly WW2, but they are connected.

Theoretical structure of a Regiment de Spahis.



The Machine Gun Squadron appears to have 2 horse-borne machine gun sections (platoons) a 37mm (Puteaux) peloton (section/squad) and two 25mm AT gun pelotons, all horse borne. I'd imagine that the two AT Guns were actually towed behind the Mlle 1911 limber.

Each squadron has a 60mm mortar team, which is also likely to have been transported using the Mlle 1911 limber.



The relevant bits of info here are that the same model of limber was used for the 25mm AT Gun, the 60mm Mortar and the 8mm Hotchkiss MG. It would seem that the original wood and iron wheels were replaced with the ones shown in the picture above and a simple spar alteration made the limber suitable for either horse or vehicle towing as appropriate on the 1937 type. My French is far from perfect, so someone speak up if I'm in error here!

The next three pics show the earlier type of carriage for the 8mm, which doesn't appear to be the same as the one shown above. Marco thinks they are WW1 or before, and I'd have to agree with him there. It's of course possible that it is the same, but the pneumatic tired wheels make it sit lower than the larger spoked ones. The mg mounted one does share a few similarities that could be attributed to modernising the original design.







Not the same mount, but this is the 13.2mm Hotchkiss of about the same period imo.



This is a good shot of a horse and mule borne Hotchkiss team. The animal arrowed is a mule, while the saddled ones are horses. I think that it is likely that, in the Rif and highland terrain of Morocco and Algeria, the carriage wasn't used. Alternatively it wasn't issued until the Spahis arrived in Europe.



I'm pretty sure this is a 25mm AT Gun team (the ammo boxes look like the 25mm ones anyway), but I'm guessing that it was taken in the Winter of 1939/40... were any Spahis deployed to Norway?




The last group of pics are various ones taken of Spahis from between the Wars and up to mid WW2 (or therabouts).

[Tannenberg]

Jim, many thanks for posting the pics on the forum   I would totally agree with you about the Spahis when stationed in North Africa - they would've more than likely used mules or pack horses in the Rif and highland terrain of Morocco and Algeria.  And, again, I would agree that the Spahis were not issued with the Mlle 1911 limber until they arrived in Europe.
On the excellent France 1940 site, which you kindly introduced me to (and for anyone interested, here's the link)  http://france1940.free.fr/armee/dlc.html
I did spot a mention about how the 60mm mortars were transported "...and one mortar platoon with four 60mm mortars carried on pack horses''.  No need to worry about the limbers then  
A gold star to everyone .
I will also be back in touch with Daniel Guédras from the Musée des Spahis de Senlis, France, in the next day or so, to ask further questions

[Tannenberg]

In one of the emails I've received from Daniel Guédras, he mentions that the Spahis regiment had 1 'canon de 37 sans recul'.  My French isn't up to scratch so does anybody know what this is?     

[Arlequín]

'Sans recul' is French for 'recoilless'.  I suspect they mean the Mle 1916 37mm trench gun rather than a recoilless rifle as we understand it.

[carlos marighela]

Jim,

I suspect you are right but I'm fairly certain the Mle 1916 37mm trench gun certainly did recoil, however slightly that was . You can see the recuperator beneath the barrel so it would be an odd description.  Another possible, albeit less likely, contender might be the earlier Hotchkiss Mle 1885 37mm cannon, which were without a recoil system, although obviously not recoilless. Some of these were used experimentally on Voisin pusher aeroplanes during the Great War.

If you look at this link you'll see the model inquestion with what appears to be the original mount fitted to the 'plane.

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/HW29e.jpg

[Arlequín]

Carlos,

I've no doubt that the Mle 1916 did recoil and certainly it is an odd description to apply. I'm guessing the description has been used by Daniel Guédras as his interpretation of something he's seen or read and is likely to be in error. The organisation table he sent to Marco previously shows a Peloton in the weapons company marked 'C37', which to me says 'Canon 37mm', hence my going for the Mle 1916. I could also be wrong of course. 

I'm boxing over my weight with regards to support weapons available, but I'm not aware of a widespread introduction of recoilless weapons before the Germans introduced the Leichtgeschütz 40. There were such weapons about just after WW1 as prototypes etc, but even if the French had dabbled in creating such a weapon, would they have deployed it with a colonial unit? I'm guessing not.

Given the Spahis' likely opponents pre-WW2, I would of thought that a 37mm light gun would've been ideal as a support weapon to dislodge tribesman from a rocky hillside strong point or a building and there were certainly a few of these weapons left over after WW1. Not as handy as a 75mm, but certainly more portable.

[Tannenberg]

Thanks Carlos and Jim   I had a look at the links you had both kindly provided.  Last night, I had come across pictures of this piece in both tripod and on wheels mode but I just wasn't sure if it might be the one in question.  I have emailed Daniel Guédras to ask him if he can provide us with more information with regards to what exactly the C37 was, as mentioned in the organisation table. 
As a matter of interest Jim, I have also asked him if he can tell us if there were any Spahis deployed in Norway (as per the caption you had placed with the photo of the lads, at the 25mm AT gun).  It would be very interesting if they had been

[carlos marighela]

Turns out that the Mle 1916 was a combination of the Mle 1885 barrel with a Nordenfeldt breech and a recoil system. Well, at least according to one source I've read. Learned something new today. Mle 1916 is the most likley contnder and fortunately Old Glory make not one but two in 28mm. They might make plug ugly figures but their guns are quite nice.

IIRC the only real users of recoilless weapons during the interwar years were the Soviets, although of course the RNAS had experimented with RCLs as an aircraft mount during the war. I seem to recall that Mr Burney and his wonderful devices came along later.

I must have RCLs on the brain, I'm currently working out how I am going to scratchbuild a MOBAT and a Soviet B10 in 28mm.

[Tannenberg]

Turns out that the Mle 1916 was a combination of the Mle 1885 barrel with a Nordenfeldt breech and a recoil system. Well, at least according to one source I've read. Learned something new today. Mle 1916 is the most likley contnder and fortunately Old Glory make not one but two in 28mm. They might make plug ugly figures but their guns are quite nice.

IIRC the only real users of recoilless weapons during the interwar years were the Soviets, although of course the RNAS had experimented with RCLs as an aircraft mount during the war. I seem to recall that Mr Burney and his wonderful devices came along later.

I must have RCLs on the brain, I'm currently working out how I am going to scratchbuild a MOBAT and a Soviet B10 in 28mm.

Carlos, do you, by any chance, happen to have any pics of the Old Glory Mle1916.  I've been on their site and they don't seem to have any on show.

[Arlequín]

As a matter of interest Jim, I have also asked him if he can tell us if there were any Spahis deployed in Norway (as per the caption you had placed with the photo of the lads, at the 25mm AT gun).  It would be very interesting if they had been

It could well have been taken in France during the Winter of 39/40 and probably was, I just like to cover all my bases before making a guess. 

Turns out that the Mle 1916 was a combination of the Mle 1885 barrel with a Nordenfeldt breech and a recoil system. Well, at least according to one source I've read. Learned something new today.

That makes two of us then... though not many days go by here when I don't learn something new... 

IIRC the only real users of recoilless weapons during the interwar years were the Soviets, although of course the RNAS had experimented with RCLs as an aircraft mount during the war. I seem to recall that Mr Burney and his wonderful devices came along later.

That's my understanding too.

I must have RCLs on the brain, I'm currently working out how I am going to scratchbuild a MOBAT and a Soviet B10 in 28mm.

Don't Mongrel do a B10 in their Arab Range? I haven't seen their 'Arab Militia with Recoilless Rifle' so I can't tell you what type it is. I'd be pretty surprised if there isn't one out there somewhere. 

[Tannenberg]

I have just received an email from Ltc Daniel Guédras who has basically confirmed what both Jim and Carlos had suggested with regards to the 'C37'.  Yes, it's the Mle 1916 37mm model 1934, manufactured by Puteaux, (as stated by Daniel: "le canon français de 37 mm AC modèle 34 fut dévellopé par les Ateliers de Puteaux").

The other question, I had asked him, was if any units of Spahis had taken part in Norway...the answer is no. So, Jim was also correct when he thought it "...could well have been taken in France during the Winter of 39/40 and probably was..."  At least now, our curiosity can be put well to rest on that point

If anyone's interested (and you have an excellent command of the French language) here's a link to more information regarding the role of the French in Norway 

http://www.cheminsdememoire.gouv.fr/page/affichecitoyennete.php?idCitoyen=26&idLang=fr

A big thanks also goes to Ltc Daniel Guédras who has also provided us with alot of great, and most useful information as well