Panzer IV F2 Colour scheme WANTED

[Faber]

Hi guys, I've just ordered a Panzer IV F2 from Company B. I'd like to paint it in classic german grey (I play urban skirmish) but if anyone has a link for Panzer IV colour scheme I would be grateful. I've ordered the 10th german armor division declas too but I really don't know where to apply numbers and symbols.
Any suggest welcome!

[elysium64]

Loads of pics here. http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_9948796/anchors_9950075/mpage_1/key_/anchor/tm.htm#9950075
Are you using 28mm scale or other, if 28mm where did you get transfers?
Cheers

[CompanyB]

The Panzer IV F2 is specific to North Africa if you use the included long gun.  If you use the short, it's good for the early German push into France as well as Russia.  A few short F2 short would of been in Normandy as well.
I don't have one of ours painted for urban warfare, but I do have a Solido model that matches that description I painted some time ago (it's a bit dusty)


For the 10th Panzer, you have a few options.  The yellow slash was for tanks that were vets of the French Campaign.

A single large number would go on each side of the turret, close to the forward portion (near the gun)  a single matching small number would go on the rear turret bustle, and next to it on the numbers left would be one of the smaller bison.

on the hull side, below the turret, you would have the small german cross, with a Bison towards the front.

[Faber]

@elysium: don't see any picture  of course I use 28mm and you can find loads of wonderful 28mm scale decals from company B http://homepage.mac.com/brentdietrich/companyB_decals.html

@company B: many thanks!

[Aeneas]

Here are photos of model kits:

http://www.modellversium.de/galerie/6-militaer-ww2/8286-pzkpfw-iv-ausf-f2-dragon.html

The model has the typical camouflage for german mid war tanks. The numbers and symbols are another Division.

[Faber]

thanks aeneas: with grey scheme for urban warfare I think this one could be perfect :http://www.modellversium.de/galerie/6-militaer-ww2/4988-pzkpfw-iv-ausf-f-verschiedene-hersteller.html Sounds good?

[panzerfaust200]

Pz IV Ausf F was indeed an early war(ish) tank (entering production in April 1941) and as such was seen in panzer grey...
the short barrelled 75mm seeing service in poland (ausf D model), the west (blitzkreig campaign - the up armoured Ausf E model)
and seeing the F for the first time in russia and indeed north africa...from April'41

the F2 was the same tank but introduced with the long barrelled 75mm KwK 40 L/43 gun!

it too saw service in north africa (where it was known to the allies as the PzIV F special because of the longer gun) - the designation F2 is a bit confusing as it was essentially what became the PzIV ausf G - and the germans "rechristened" it three months after production began in Nov'41

if you are gaming early war then it should be grey

these tanks soldiered on until lost or replaced and as mentioned in the thread, 21st panzer were operating some old C's in Normandy in '44 - (but i imagine no-one intended them to see combat and were for training more than anything else - heck they were using old french tanks too...)

HTH?

rob


an F2 in Russia in '42, the cammo is probably a coat of mud in stripes over the panzer grey at this point in the war...

[elysium64]

@elysium: don't see any picture  of course I use 28mm and you can find loads of wonderful 28mm scale decals from company B http://homepage.mac.com/brentdietrich/companyB_decals.html

Sorry seem to have missed out the link. now added.

[Faber]

Sorry seem to have missed out the link. now added.

Wunderbar! on the target.  nice link.

@Panzerfaust: many thanks! so, if I understand collecting ifno from you and Company B, if I paint a grey one, it must be the F1 variant with the short gun and it is a early war tank. If I want the F2 variant it has to be in a different camouflage. I'm not a purist and I'd preferr to make a F2 variant but I play late war and urban war, so: is it impossible to see a grey F2 in eastern or western late war?
Many thanks to everybody for suggests: for newbies it is essential

[Westfalia Chris]

I wouldn't say you can't have a dark grey F2. Most of my WW2 reference books are in storage right now, but I seem to recall a pic of a Panzergrau F2 in the early summer of 1942, which is a transitional period to the factory-applied Dunkelgelb that came into widespread use from the last quarter of 1942 onwards.

As for late-war uses, there was a theory based on some photos in the early and mid 90s that due to a lack of yellow paint supplies, in the last year of the war some vehicles were painted with dark grey leftovers, and some used in only their reddish anti-rust primer. The dark grey part has come under suspicion, though, since some of the pics allegedly showing grey late war vehicles were re-interpreted (by use of computer analysis of the tonal values, IIRC) as being in a dark green main coat.

I would not necessarily object to using dark grey vehicles, for Normandy at least. I've seen at least one photo of a "short 75" IV used in Normandy which was clearly dark-grey; since training and garrison battalions were not very high on the supplies priorities list, re-painting all the vehicles could take quite some time.

[Faber]

Many thanks Chris!  now I feel free to make a panzergrau F2 for late war! maybe a veteran tank that nobody had the time to repaint with a new camouflage 

[panzerfaust200]

Long barrelled F2's were used IIRC in the Kharkov battle in early '43 and were grey!
(thats going from memory - no doubt i've made a gash of something)
but in essence faber you are correct...

as a rule of thumb -
anything earlier than spring '43 = grey
anything after summer '43 = dunkel gelb


top left PzIV F2 from kharkov '43
top right PzIV with markings from the western desert '42
the remaining 3x PzIV's appear to be G's from '43
[size= 8pt]
image from - http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://static.hlj.com/images/mda/mdabk-09.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.hlj.com/product/MDABK-09&usg=__fJf9GHsqAsQ8wFvB4E7ZGAboF8o=&h=450&w=600&sz=74&hl=en&start=7&zoom=1&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=QdaTtXPpVz_3tM:&tbnh=101&tbnw=135&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dpanzer%2BIV%2Bcolour%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26tbs%3Disch:1[/size]

@ Westphalia Chris
"since training and garrison battalions were not very high on the supplies priorities list, re-painting all the vehicles could take quite some time."

a point well made - but equally idle hands make mischief... Pz Abt 213 on the channel islands being a case in point - their captured French tanks arrived in panzer grey with typical early war markings and by the time of the normandy invasion were seen sporting a classic three colour camo (red brown and green over dark yellow) with late style numbers and crosses... so for this unit at least, some sargeant major kept the chaps busy!!!!!

as for very latewar patterns and styles... this is a broad as it is long - general consensus appears to be that around sept'44 the pattern of colours applied at the factory changed and we see a "darker" overall look to the AFV's - indeed green and sparse yellow over red brown primer is one example, some attribute this to shortages of late war stocks of yellow paint, others to a doctrinal change as NWE is darker and more verdant than the russian steppes...
Jentz and Doyle also propose a shift toward yellow and beige/cream/white over red brown (possibly primer) with a smattering of green on very late war AFV's (such as the Bovington panther is now represented as...)

[Arlequín]

Paint shortages dictated repaint times more than anything else. Tanks were repainted at scheduled intervals, or when paint was available. As a result the shift from grey to gelb wasn't overnight, except in respect of the order issued authorising it. New vehicles would come in the appropriate authorised camouflage direct from factory, while other vehicles would get a repaint when the paint was available, or when it was 'their' time. You could therefore have both grey and gelb vehicles within the same unit around the Summer '43 time. Certainly there was a degree of variance for 'official' schemes too, as Panzerfaust200 has shown quite well.

[Helen]

Try this:

http://ww2drawings.jexiste.fr/Files/1-Vehicles/Axis/1-Germany/02-mPanzers/PzKpfw4/PzKpfw4-Ausf.F2.htm

http://www.missing-lynx.com/gallery/german/pzivf2_jmoore.html