A Very Portuguese Civil War?

[Kingscarbine]

I was looking for ideas for AVPCW when I came across some info about the Republican vs Monarchist almost-civil war:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_First_Republic
http://caaenglish.com/Chaves_history_paivacouceiro.html

And then there's the alternative history scenario:
http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/Portuguese_Civil_War_%28Royal_War%29

Another project? 

[Count Winsky]

I think your on to a great idea for a project.  There are so many possibilities for AVPCW.  I thought of the following as possibe starting points besides mainland Portugal; Angola, Mozambique, Azores, Slavery and Colonialism.

I actually lived on the island of Terceira in the Azores (Acores) for two years and the island was full of forts, emplacements, and bunkers dating back from the 1700's - 1940's.  The British had established themselves on this island pre and post WWII and there is actually a British War cemetary there.  So you could actually tie in AVBCW if you wanted to.  I had a blast hiking with my daughter discovering all of this cool stuff.

From what I witnessed the people of the Azores are very traditional and religious.  I feel back in the early 1900's that they would have sided with the crown or whatever side the Pope was backing. 

Best wishes on your project!!!

[warhammergrimace]

An interesting project, look forward to seeing what you do with it.

[frontal assault]

An interesting idea to be sure.  Not only do you have the fall of the monarchy and rise of the Republic as one starting point, but you could also have a Veteran's Revolt post-WW1 as the returning soldiers decide to take revenge on the government that sent them to France.

That's one of the great things about this V(insert country)CW idea, you can tailor it to whichever country you're from.

[meninobesta]

...but you could also have a Veteran's Revolt post-WW1 as the returning soldiers decide to take revenge on the government that sent them to France.

The returning ones were very few and most of them sick or full of war wounds... It could be very difficult for them to start a civil war...

but it is a good idea...

[carlos marighela]

I would have thought 1974 provides as much potential. The 1974 revolution being one of the very rare examples of a socially progressive coup d'etat. Portugal's example to the world. That one came close to causing a civil war. There was a serious prospect of the army exchanging fire in Lisbon not to mention the army vs the militia, police DGS and the legion. For 28mm games Dinky and Solido prvide you with all the necessary kit - M-47s, Panhard AML's and EBRs, Berliet and Unimog trucks. You can even get all the artillery. The only thing missing so far has been the troops and that's just about to be remedied in the form of Eureka's forthcoming range for the Guerra do Ultramar. Cool kit, cool looking troops, interesting period.

Apols, this isn't an interwar scenario.

[Arlequín]

No apology needed, it's a valid point.

While looking at 'What Ifs' it's just as important to consider the 'When' as well as any other factor if you want to create any form of credibility imo. Not being any way really knowledgeable about Portugal's history, I'd have put money on an increased involvement in the Spanish Civil War, or a Portuguese Civil War that ran in tandem to it due to similar tensions.   

[meninobesta]

No apology needed, it's a valid point.

While looking at 'What Ifs' it's just as important to consider the 'When' as well as any other factor if you want to create any form of credibility imo. Not being any way really knowledgeable about Portugal's history, I'd have put money on an increased involvement in the Spanish Civil War, or a Portuguese Civil War that ran in tandem to it due to similar tensions.   

Although I'm not sure about the details there was a some fighting in Portugal during the SCW, but this was just a singular occurrence that happened in the north of the country near the border, I must admit that I don't recall the reasons of this, but there was a recent documentary about his on Portuguese TV, unfortunately I've missed it.

going again to the '74 revolution, there wasn't a civil war, but Portugal lived a very tense period after the revolution, my father even heard shots near our house when he was coming from work during that time, and there were a couple of armed revolutionary forces that made some bank robberies and bomb attacks, this period extender to 25th of November of '75 where another coup happened which finally helped to end any possible civil war scenario!

There was a real Portuguese civil war during the XIX century which could be played almost in a cowboy like fashion but with all the positive aspects of Portuguese gastronomy and verbal abuses!

But I guess the best scenario Portugal has to offer for a good skirmish game was during the 2nd world war, since our country was full of spies from all countries which had to live side by side on a daily bases but each one of them had it's own agenda, and some fighting and car chasing happened specially in our capital

[Plynkes]

But I guess the best scenario Portugal has to offer for a good skirmish game was during the 2nd world war, since our country was full of spies from all countries which had to live side by side on a daily bases but each one of them had it's own agenda, and some fighting and car chasing happened specially in our capital

Ian Fleming claimed "Casino Royale" was inspired by an incident in which he took a top Nazi agent for all his money at Chemin de Fer in the Estoril Casino during the war. But then again some people say he used to make shit like that up because his real spying job was quite boring.  

[Arlequín]

I read 'A Small Death in Lisbon' by Robert Wilson, with a storyline set in wartime Portugal, which I recommend. Certainly if your interest is in dirty deeds and other such like adventures, then it's a great setting.

I'd have to say that the 1970s would be the most likely time for a Civil War though too. I was due to visit Lisbon at the time of both revolutions and on each occasion the ship was diverted to Vigo, which is hardly an acceptable alternative.

[meninobesta]

I read 'A Small Death in Lisbon' by Robert Wilson, with a storyline set in wartime Portugal, which I recommend. Certainly if your interest is in dirty deeds and other such like adventures, then it's a great setting.

I'd have to say that the 1970s would be the most likely time for a Civil War though too. I was due to visit Lisbon at the time of both revolutions and on each occasion the ship was diverted to Vigo, which is hardly an acceptable alternative.

I've also read that book, and it gives a lot of ideas for some skirmish scenarios, being myself from Lisbon the thing I liked most was the way Wilson described the streets with their names and locations, I really felt like home!

That besides that there were a lot of stories about fugitives trying to flee to America, pilots from crashed down planes and the usual spy stories, which, like Plynkes said, spent most of their time doing boring paperwork, sunbathing at the beaches and playing in the Casino!

Regarding the 70's revolution didn't know that the ports were closed, also there was an atempt to make a coup during '74 after april where a unit of paratroopers ocupied an airbase in Lisbon, things could went very wrong, but everything was settled down with some heavy discussion

during the 70s after the revolution there were:
- still some groups very related with the fallen regime, the church had some influence on them too,
- obviously some armed forces dissident groups,
- a lot of workers groups and sindicates which never agreed with one another,
- some more extremist revolutionary groups namely the FP25
- armed peasant forces which trying to nationalize the farmland and the ones that opposed them (had some older relatives in Alentejo who had to defend and barricade their farms with tractors, pitchforks and shotguns),
- thousands of colonists that had to return to Portugal from Africa

and to make things worse people had, and still have, their own football club alegiance

PS: sorry about the spelling and the like, I'm out of spell checking in my PC

[carlos marighela]

A surprisingly good book on the subject in English is Insight on Portugal, The Year of the Captains from the Sunday Times. If it suffers from anything it's that it was written in 1975 so it's fairly close to contemporaneous, with all the positives and negatives that go with contemporary accounts. It gives a fairly good account of both events leading up to the 1974 revolution as well as the execution of the coup d'etat by the MFA.

There were a number of tense stand offs during the execution of the coup, including a face off between loyalist and MFA tanks in Rua do Arsenal, which was effectively defused by the MFA commanders on the spot suggesting that  if fighting broke out that it would lead to civil war.

Actually the events leading up to the '74 revolution are potentially fertile ground for 'what if' type scenarios. Leaving aside the captains and majors of the MFA, senior ranks of the Portuguese army were fairly factionalised, partly as a result of the way the army was structured. Plenty of fodder there. If anyone feels a need to draw in external forces, just remember Franco was still alive, across the border in 1974.

[Arlequín]

Regarding the 70's revolution didn't know that the ports were closed...

I can't say that the ports were closed, just that the ship was diverted on two occasions in consecutive years, which is obviously not the same thing.

I can't speak for Lisbon, but certainly Mr Wilson knows his way around Sevilla, judging by his other books. 

[Kingscarbine]

The returning ones were very few and most of them sick or full of war wounds... It could be very difficult for them to start a civil war...

but it is a good idea...

Were did you get that info from? They were certainly a major force behind the various revolts of the period.

[Kingscarbine]

There was a real Portuguese civil war during the XIX century which could be played almost in a cowboy like fashion but with all the positive aspects of Portuguese gastronomy and verbal abuses!

You really should read more history books mate.  This was the largest and most destructive war Portugal was involved between the Napoleonic Wars and WW1. Although you can game the guerrilla side of the war that way you're omiting about 95% of the conflict. Just to get you on the right track here are a couple of links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Wars
http://balagan.org.uk/war/liberal-wars/index.htm