Stupid Qs - I think..?

[Argonor]

I'm pretty sure this has been addressed before (somewhere), but I coudn't find it, and I have to be completely certain of this, as I'm going to demo the game in a couple of weeks:

1)
Nominations:
All nominations have to be done BEFORE any actions taken, right? You cannot have a model with Command or Lieutenant first move into range, and then nominate other models?

2)
Face down in b2b with enemy:
If a model charges an enemy, then loses the combat and goes face down (combat result, not psychology) - it cannot then use its 2nd action to change state to face up, right (cannot change state in b2b)? So the only way to survive going face down in close combat is another model charging in and dispatching the enemy (or distracting it by drawing its attack in following combats)? I need a 'Distract' skill (just entered my mind - haven't got the rules here, so I don't remember if it exists already).

3)
Face up in b2b:
Model face up must win combat to crawl away and then change state to normal, right? No jumping up in b2b (unless a skill
permits it)?

As I said: maybe stupid questions, but they arose during yesterdays game, and I could not find the relevant rules in the heat of battle.

[Uncle Mike]

Hey Argonor,

1) Yup. Nominations first...also, you must use a models two actions before using another model...no splitting up actions.

2) You could use the second action to go 'Face Up' but would then have to fight another round of cc...with the negatives for being 'Face Up'.

3) you must always fight a round of cc when in base to base with an enemy model...if a 'Face up' model wins combat it may only move away...

Hope that helps...

[Argonor]

2) You could use the second action to go 'Face Up' but would then have to fight another round of cc...with the negatives for being 'Face Up'.

OK, so it IS permitted for a Face Down model to change state in b2b - only a Face Up model cannot.
That is important - I think it is far more likely that a Treshold operative survives a CC than a Lurker ignoring it and moving away.

Thanks, I'll note this for future use. 

Thought of the day:
It is VERY important for the Treshold player to understand and correctly apply the chain of command rules to optimize the firepower brought to bear against the Lurkers. A single powerful Lurker (like the Shambler) is able to bring down at least double its points value if not opposed properly (result of last Sunday).

[Uncle Mike]

Hey Argonor,

Both Face Up and Face Down models can change state in B-to-B but in either case a round of cc must be fought as they are in B-to-B...if that makes sense...for more details see page 13 of the main rulebook. 

[Argonor]

   I'll read it on the train tomorrow if I remember to put the rulebook into my bag.

I'm working hard at getting an appointment on either the 28th or the 29th at the club in Svendborg, but it is hard to get hold of the 'Key-Bearers' who are responsible for opening the venue.

Plan is to do SA and some Fear & Faith modern zombies.

[Argonor]

So Face Down model uses an action to go Face Up and immediately fight a CC with -1. If it wins, it crawls 2" away.

Face Up model can spend action to become Normal, then immediately fight CC with no penalties, and able to hurt opponent.

Demo on coming Saturday - 'Retrieve the Artifacts' will be played; table, terrain, markers, and minis ready; need to make two basic lists for Treshold and Lurkers.

And just finished painting my Magus Mummy for VUK Death Cult (which turned out rather spiffy for the first mini painted in about ½ year), and started painting my Cult leader (perky Egyptian priestess from reaper).

[Yggdrasil]

So Face Down model uses an action to go Face Up and immediately fight a CC with -1. If it wins, it crawls 2" away.

According to "Change State Actions" on page 12 a model have to perform "change state" actions untill it's Normal again and while not being normal it may not use other actions than "change state".
While being Face Up the only possible Action you could make is a "change State to Normal".
This means that Face Up models may not charge.

On Page 13 is mentioned, that a face up model may fight back in Combat. This happens, when the opponent Model in B-t-B uses a charge action to attack your Face Up Model. The other possibility would be that neither model is activated while fighting in a draw. Therefore an automatical combat would be fought in which your face up model is able to fight with the modifiers.

Therefore a Face Down model in B-t-B with an enemy have to make 2 "change state" actions first before beeing able to charge and only Face Up models are able to defend themselves while beeing charged by the opponent.
-> I missunderstood the situation!

Face Up model can spend action to become Normal, then immediately fight CC with no penalties, and able to hurt opponent.

That's right. The model uses one action to get normal and a second one to make one charge action.

Demo on coming Saturday - 'Retrieve the Artifacts' will be played; table, terrain, markers, and minis ready; need to make two basic lists for Treshold and Lurkers.

And just finished painting my Magus Mummy for VUK Death Cult (which turned out rather spiffy for the first mini painted in about ½ year), and started painting my Cult leader (perky Egyptian priestess from reaper).

Sounds very interesting! Do you have pictures of the painted minis?

[Argonor]

Both Face Up and Face Down models can change state in B-to-B but in either case a round of cc must be fought as they are in B-to-B...if that makes sense...for more details see page 13 of the main rulebook.  

The face down model would never (unless some special rule allows more than 2 actions) be able to change state twice, as that would mean that he had survived fighting a round of combat face down before being nominated/activated (any models in b2b must fight CC BEFORE nominations), and that is not possible, as face down models are removed automatically.

I know there are some ambiguities in the rules concerning this, but I think I read elsewhere, that the 'charge' rule will be changed to better reflect reality 

[Argonor]

Sounds very interesting! Do you have pictures of the painted minis?

Nope, will have to wait until the entire cult is finished - If you mean Treshold and Lurkers, I'll probably take some during the demos.

[Yggdrasil]

I guess I have missunderstood you. My Fault! Of course you are right. After making a change state action a round of Close Combat is automatically fought.
And of course a Face Down Model is removed at the beginning of a turn while in b-t-b because at the beginning of the nomination this Close Combat is fought.


Sorry, sorry, sorry  
Next time I think before i write such things 

[Argonor]

NP - I have had a hard time figuring out the exact menaing of a lot of sentences in the rules.

I think it all (nearly) fits together if every rule is interpreted correctly, but if one misreads/misunderstands just one sentence, everything gets muddy.

[Argonor]

I actually just thought of a situation where a Face Down model in b2b might survive until next nominated:

If the FD model has a friend in b2b with the same enemy, the player controlling the 2 models get to decide which one fights in the compulsory combat.

Or is the FD model still considred being 'engaged' (and removed) if that happens?

[D@rth J@ymZ]

Having 2 models in CC would allow you to choose which model you nominate to engage in CC.  That would allow you survive if face down in base to base (assuming that you win, of course ) 

[Argonor]

You might lose, but still - the losing model may still stay in b2b, and the opponent might not even get nominated on its turn - securing the survival of at least one of the models during next compulsory CC.

I think other combinations of events/outcomes are probably possible, too... but odd situations must be handled as they arise.

I also think some examples should be written into the next rules edition, as it is a rather tricky thing that might affect the outcome of a game a great deal.