What do you want in a Skirmish Magic System?

[number9]

Gotcha. I was being a bit rhetorical. I think your approach through this forum is very admirable.

[Faust23]

Cool.  Just didn't want to give the wrong impression.

Thanks for giving such solid feedback Nine!

[Johnno]

No armour but maybe some defensive spells to protect against damage.

I think a fire spell instead of a generic blast spell is better as there could be cumulative effects. ie a missed fireball could set a building on fire instead

[phreedh]

[q ;)uote author=Johnno link=topic=30052.msg360915#msg360915 date=1307720864]
No armour but maybe some defensive spells to protect against damage.

I think a fire spell instead of a generic blast spell is better as there could be cumulative effects. ie a missed fireball could set a building on fire instead
[/quote]But that can be stipulated by the individual players and doesn't have to be set in rules.

[Faust23]

I've kicked around the idea of having specific types of energy effects to differentiate fire, cold, etc. but I'm still out on that idea....

[weazil]

I've always thought it would be nice to have a system where the caster buys his spells - I suppose the closest analogy would be how scrolls tend to work in fantasy settings - you buy it, you read it once, and then its gone.

So, if you wanted to be able to do three fire balls, for instance, you would have to buy three fire ball 'castings'.

The main reason for this is that it provides a 'finite' feeling to the available magic in the game, and the more magic you want, the more you will pay for the character. This approach also allows you to give non-mage characters the ability to cast, following the traditional D&D Ranger, Bard type of scenario - so you can spread your magic out across your warband. Doing that allows players to tailor their warbands a little more - they can either have several characters that can cast small, cheap spells that don't have much effect, or they can focus their magic on one or two more capable casters who are probably specialists and shouldn't get involved in combat, but can produce much more effective magic.

You can also build limits into the system by saying a wizard only has a certain amount of points to spend on spells. So, in the case of a wizard who has, say, 100 points - he could either buy two big daddy fireball s at 50 points each, or he could get five lightning bolts at 20 points each, or one fireball, two lightning bolts and something else for 10 points. This makes spell selection more strategic than the typical random generation that I've seen in other games.

Also, if one applied a caster level to the mix, you might find that players will be forced to sacrifice cheap spell slots at lower levels in order to afford some of the spells at higher levels. I suppose the whole mechanism allows players to apply a quantity vs. quality argument argument to their spell choice, without the whole thing becoming too dominant a part of the game.

[Faust23]

Interesting point.  I had kicked around the idea of buying spells like other pieces of equipment.  I may still do that.

I've considered having the 'spell caster' trait or what not, and then that allows you to purchase spells.

[Drachenklinge]

the problem with magic is, that we have no "real" compare to it. E.g. Why does a - say - swordmaster need to buy sword-strikes for?

In comparison a magician might need to buy (and learn!) the scrolls ... even some incredients for specific spells, but (without incredients) why should he need ressources everytime? ok, he have to concentrate or need specific brain-juice (mana), but this given swordmaster does need power to, therefore in every system chars need to get to sleep.

What I wouldn't do is to restrict the "mana". But as mentioned above would enforce some specific behaviour, like avoiding all meet or all vegetable or whatever. Some set-back, forcing the player of the magician to think about his doings at every minute (of the game) - to concentrate!

Since in most games magicians sooner or later have all the spells they need for climbing, fishing, fighting, fire-making and flying, they should try to assemble a specific attitude in the game to represent the "way of a magician", not only by "I am looking for scrolls at the bookmarket!"

best wishes
Drachenklinge

[number9]

I totally agree on magical limits. Mages that can do everything can become automatic choices for players which diminishes the pull of other classes and professions.

I think if you are still going with a level system, you simply establish a cost for a number of spell levels a player wants, and give it a firm cap for PCs (there is only so much that the mind can handle afterall, even in magic). You also make it such that a player cannot take a level 2 version of a spell unless they take the level 1 version, or the level 3 until they take level 1 and level 2. Borrowing a bit from an earlier post I had:

EXAMPLE:

Mages are provided with a number of spell points equal to three times their proficiency rating. Starting proficiency ratings have a set cost as laid out below:

Mage proficiency 1: 10 points
Mage proficiency 2: 20 points
Mage proficiency 3: 30 points

Though mages of proficiency 4 and 5 exist in the world, they are epic beings of terrible power that are best governed by a GM or a special scenario.

If I choose a mage of proficiency 2 I am given 6 spell points to go buy spells with. Each spell costs 1 point per level of spell. Thus a level 1 spell costs 1 point, a level 2 spell costs 2 points, etc. In order to purchase a higher level spell of a particular category, you have to have purchased each of the lower level spells in the same category. For instance if I wanted the level 3 version of a damage spell, I'd need to also have the level 1 and level 2 damage spell. In effect this means purchasing a level 3 spell costs 6 total points (1 point for the level 1, 2 for the level 2, and finally 3 for the level 3).

Back to my mage proficiency 2; with my six points I could become a specialist and gain all three levels in one category, or I could be a generalist and know 6 different level 1 spells from 6 different categories, or land somewhere in between.


This kind of limiting still allows players to theme their mages exactly how they want without forcing a specific preconceived world on them. Proficiency could just be another skill any race or profession can take for a cost, thus you can have all the hybrid-type classes you see in traditional RPGs or in fiction. Maybe my fantasy world is populated by elite knights of necromancy and they terrorize the land in full plate with good fighting skills, raising the battered bodies of those they defeat in battle into a shambling army of the dead! Maybe your fantasy world is full of a select council of wizened old men barely able to stand, let alone fight, that wear no armor, wield no weapons, and guard their magical secrets to the grave.

I often wonder at the massive investment in time and creativity on display when provided with a magnificent, rich fantasy background world which plays out with sub-par game mechanics that I am forced to modify and tinker with to suit my group's preferences. I want it the other way around. Provide magnificent, rich game mechanics and leave the fantasy world to me 

[Faust23]

Great points of discussion guys.  I am soaking it all in.

What did you all think about Mordheim's magic system?  Too simplistic?

[Faust23]

I'm thinking that magic at the skirmish level should be limited, and not overtly game changing.

I also think Magic Items will be fun and should be useful, but not unbalancing.

In working on these concepts I find it tempting to go all out with the Big Magic shizzle, but I'm still resisting.

Would you prefer Magic Items that are unique or that are ubiquitous?

[Mister Rab]

Rare, I think, but not unique. Only characters would have access. My ideal would be for characteristics that can be purchased to construct a magic item. E.g. +1 to wound, non-magical armour ignored, bearer causes fear etc.

Perhaps there would be a limit to the number of characteristics that could be purchased? Linked to the character's status, or a max for the warband as a whole?

Anyway, players could then describe it any way they saw fit. So, my 'sword of the elder kings' could be the same as your 'dragon's-breath-forged blade', his 'excaliber' or the other bloke's 'glamdring' if they each had particular in-game effects. This would have a similar feel to the magic system y'all have been discussing above.