11th November - Remembrance Day

[Vanvlak]

[Poliorketes]

Compiègne? Hm. Stirs difficult feelings.

But today, 9th November, is worth remembering, too. I always felt it would have been the better date for germans national holiday, with 3 remarkable events taking place in the last 100 years: 1918 the proclamation of the republic, 1938 the so-called "Reichskristallnacht", and 1989 the opening of the wall.

[PeteMurray]

I have faith in humanity because less than a hundred years after the horror of the Great War, and less than two generations after the Second World War, we citizens of once-mortal enemies can speak in friendship. This, more than any stone monument or bronze plaque, shows that those deaths were not in vain.

[Hammers]

Hear, hear!

[Plynkes]

Does it show that, though? If we can all be friends now, then why the hell did those poor fellows all have to die in the Great War?

Seems to me that, unbearable as the thought may be, maybe they did die in vain. Especially when you consider what happened twenty years after.


But having said that, I am so glad we are all friends now, and that in 2007 I could go to Rheinland-Pfalz, drink their lovely beer, eat their curious sausages, and try to steal their painting secrets without being shot at.

[W.B.Kurgan]

Does it show that, though? If we can all be friends now, then why the hell did those poor fellows all have to die in the Great War?

I think is does! If we were still at war - then they would have died in vain.

 :|

[Lowtardog]

I think we should not forget however we do need to remember on an equal footing all those that have died since the end of WW2, all the small wars and scuffles have their own tallies of the dead across the world with no end in sight

[Plynkes]

Well I don't really like to think about it this way, but as far as I can see, the monstrous losses and unimaginable sacrifice of Ypres, the Somme, Verdun and the rest achieved nothing but hold the door open for the likes of Mussolini, Hitler and Stalin, and other such gangsters to come marching in.

That's why I say it was in vain. The next generation had to do it all over again.

[Vanvlak]

I think we should not forget however we do need to remember on an equal footing all those that have died since the end of WW2, all the small wars and scuffles have their own tallies of the dead across the world with no end in sight

True - in fact Remembrance day is dedicated to all war dead, not just WWI, although it is still held on the day the Great War ended.

[PeteMurray]

Does it show that, though? If we can all be friends now, then why the hell did those poor fellows all have to die in the Great War?

I don't think I can answer this. I really don't, and I really want to.

I've written and erased about a thousand words because they don't work.

[xeoran]

Does it show that, though? If we can all be friends now, then why the hell did those poor fellows all have to die in the Great War?

Seems to me that, unbearable as the thought may be, maybe they did die in vain. Especially when you consider what happened twenty years after.

I'd argue with that. If it wasn't for those men on the Allied side fighting then Belgium, France and a swathe of Europe would have been ruled by a deeply imperialist and ruthless Germany. No doubt war would have spread with the attempt to take colonies away from what few imperial powers existed.

Nonetheless the victory was cheapened by the peace. The Versailles treaty being one of the great foul ups of modern history.

If we hadn't had them then perhaps we wouldn't have the peace now.

[Plynkes]

I guess we don't see eye to eye on that, then.

For me the victory was rendered utterly worthless by the peace, as if it had never happened. All the sacrifice was undone and left meaningless, and Europe was condemned to dance the same waltz in another twenty years.

I suppose the only way to have avoided that would be a quick victory (for any side) in 1914. Once so much blood and treasure had been spent, no one was going to be magnanimous in victory.

But I don't have a crystal ball, so such speculation is a bit pointless, really.

I'd like to think all that sacrifice was worthwhile, but I just don't believe it.

[Hammers]

Plynkes, do you not agree to that there is a difference these days? I certainly think so and it cannot have come out of nothing.

[Plynkes]

No, the sacrifice of 1939-45 was not for nothing. Out of that came the world we live in, and out of that peace came our united and (mostly) peaceful Europe.


But 14-18 just seems so pointless and futile to me that it is depressing to even contemplate it sometimes.

I am grateful for and appreciate their sacrifice (and that they were trying to protect the future, the one that I live in), I just don't think it achieved anything good.

[Hammers]

I have come to consider WWI and WWII as one prolonged conflict. The European problems were not solved with the Versaille treaty.