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Author Topic: Its a long way to Tel El-Kebir ...  (Read 3830 times)

Offline Henry Lauder

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Its a long way to Tel El-Kebir ...
« on: September 15, 2011, 04:09:27 AM »
Well the next wargaming project beckons ...

I joined LAF in part to find some inspiration as I enter my 'Colonial phase' which began with a spur of the moment purchase of some pre-painted 15mm Colonial Brits.


I certainly will have a shot at the campaigns in the Zulu kingdom some day - which would suit the redcoats well. But after reading around a bit I've decided to start with the Egyptian War of 1882 for my first project. I fancy fighting against a foe with a bit of ordnance! Given my preference for many figures to a base rulesets I am leaning towards Hoards of the Empire or the DBn adaption DB Colonial. Always keen for suggestions!

Anyone else out there fought this campaign? Any advice most welcome.

First job is to find a supplier that does some Egyptians that will match up well size wise with the Brits I have (that will need some repainting here and there, of course). I think they are Lancashire Games figures. Any suggestions welcome.

I've been lookign at the Essex early / later period Egyptians http://www.essexminiatures.co.uk/frames15col.html - I assume they might match up OK. Does anyone have some pictures of these guys beyond what they have on the site? Also, any advice on what the difference between the early/later period groups would be welcome.

Thanks for any help / advice.

Great forum - the 28mmm stuff I see it totally inspiring.

Cheers

Alan


Announcing your plans is a good way to hear God laugh

http://senlachill.blogspot.com/

Offline efredbar

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Re: Its a long way to Tel El-Kebir ...
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2011, 11:56:16 AM »
The Gatling gun crew are Irregular so there's something for comparison.

This fella... http://steve-the-wargamer-sudan.blogspot.com/  uses Lancs, Essex and Peter Pig (the pp's would be too small for me).

Glad to see pictures of the Lancashire figures....I like the look of them.


Offline joroas

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Re: Its a long way to Tel El-Kebir ...
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2011, 11:58:22 AM »
Dixons also have a nice range, but it is unfinished.............
'So do all who see such times. But that is not for us to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that we are given.'

Offline Liliburlero

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Re: Its a long way to Tel El-Kebir ...
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2011, 04:04:16 PM »
"Given my preference for many figures to a base rulesets I am leaning towards Hoards of the Empire or the DBn adaption DB Colonial. Always keen for suggestions!"

Might I suggest Eight Hundred Fighting Englishmen which is the battalion-level variant for The Sword and The Flame?  I do have a bias, though, as we publish it........... 
ďLittle Wars: a game for boys from twelve years of age to one hundred and fifty and for that more intelligent sort of girl who likes boys' games and books.Ē  H.G. Wells 1913.

http://www.sergeants3.com

Offline answer_is_42

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Re: Its a long way to Tel El-Kebir ...
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2011, 04:43:02 PM »
Oh good, we don't see much about the 1882 war around here. I'm working on an article about it at the moment.

Advice for gaming it? Well, most rules/lists for Egyptians Iíve seen are written with their later fighting in the Sudan in mind, and so often need to be changed. The Egyptians in 1882 have pretty good morale (although were often pinned easily, particularly by artillery), competent officers, but the infantry were appalling shots. I mean really, really bad. They also had little regular cavalry, and were forced to rely on irregular mounted Bedouin who were almost totally useless on the battlefield. Their artillery corps, on the other hand, was superb. Well trained and willing to fight to the last round if need be (which they did at both Alexandria and Tel el-Kebir).

For Egyptians in 15mm, you'll want the 'early' figures from Essex. Peter Pig's figures would also work, also minifigs, although I'm afraid I don't know how well these will scale up with yours.

http://www.peterpig.co.uk/range22.htm
http://www.miniaturefigurines.co.uk/Catalogue.aspx?ScaleID=2&CategoryID=13&SubCategoryID=88
I told you so. You damned fools.
 - H.G. Wells

Offline Henry Lauder

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Re: Its a long way to Tel El-Kebir ...
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2011, 11:50:25 AM »
Thanks everyone for helpful/interesting replies.

Thanks for picking up the Gating is an Irregular - have been planning to get a few of the Irregular range cast up so I can check them out. They don't go too badly by the looks of this comparison. Will look into your other suggestions. The Lancashire look OK (if that's what they are) - just a little lacking in detail and a bit frail in the limbs and 'arms' in some figures. I may well start with a trial order from Essex.

Have pondered Eight Hundred Fighting Englishmen - will have a look. Nothing I love more than buying rules ... well except adding to the unpainted lead pile. o_o

Interested to hear more about your article on 1882 campaign 42. Sounds like the Egyptians will have a job holding off the Brits on the wargaming table (as in real life) but that just adds to the challenge. Do you have any suggestions about good texts on this campaign? I've started with internet resources and the Osprey title but would like to dig a bit deeper.

Thanks again for your generous advice. Will post on my (slow) progress on this one. Good project for this summer - will get me into the mindset.

Cheers,

Alan



Offline answer_is_42

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Re: Its a long way to Tel El-Kebir ...
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2011, 12:59:03 PM »
Do you have any suggestions about good texts on this campaign? I've started with internet resources and the Osprey title but would like to dig a bit deeper.
Compared to the Zulus and Dervish, there is very little out there on the Egyptian war. The best books are:

A Tidy Little War by William Wright. This covers the campaign in great detail and uses a lot of good sources not seen before. It's also about as close as you can get to seeing the war from an Egyptian perspective.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Tidy-Little-War-British-Invasion/dp/0752450905/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1316435417&sr=8-1

The Campaign Of 1882 In Egypt by Col. J.F. Maurice. This is a very dry account of the war published in 1887 by the War Office. Most importantly, it contains the entire British Order of Battle, casualties, lists of officers and even the number of shells fired by the Royal Artillery at each engagement.
http://www.naval-military-press.com/campaign-of-1882-in-egypt.html

Used with the Osprey (which has the best maps to be found on the war), these two should give you everything you need to game the campaign (except accurate Egyptian OoBs, but Iím not convinced the Egyptian army at the time knew where half its units were so thereís little chance of us finding out).

Also of interest might be Egypt:1882 Dispatches, Casualties, Awards compiled by Peter Duckers, which as the name suggests in a collection of official dispatches and the like ( Canít remember where I got my copy from, Iím sure you can find a seller somewhere).

Finally, the war artist Richard Simkin produced a book in 1883 with text from The Times on the war, which whilst not of much use for the history, has some great colour and line drawings of troops involved in the campaign. Costs quite a lot for such a thin book, though.
http://www.naval-military-press.com/war-in-egypt-1882-illustrated-by-richard-simpkin.html

Beyond mentions in more general history books (Pakenham's The Scramble for Africa has a good account), that is basically all there is of note. Hope it's useful, anyway.

Offline thesnufkin

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Re: Its a long way to Tel El-Kebir ...
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2011, 12:21:31 PM »
I came to Egypt via the Zulu War and Northwest Frontier: troops that were sent to the campaign were from the Home Garrisons and India so you can use both sets of figures.

The battle you want to refight is Kassassin, a moonlit encounter battle were the British were trying to hold a vital lock on the Sweetwater canal against an Egyptian counter attack. Unlike the set piece of Tel El-Kebir, this battle was fought by ad hoc forces on both sides. As it was effectively random wo was available you can almost use any troops you want, or just draw cards or roll dice for the Orders of Battle. The British force actually included artillery with hardly any shells and Royal Marine artillery fighting as infantry.

If you want to play the historical scenario Stuart Asquith wrote it up for Battle Games Issue 7 (http://www.battlegames.co.uk/admin/battlegames-shop2.html).

Playing the Egyptian is interesting. They generally get a poor press, but the troops they sent to fight for Maximillian in Mexico were considered to be really good.  They have decent artillery and their infantry is a mixture of brave but poorly drilled Sudanese and well trained but less brave (and short sigted) Egyptian.

p.s. this is my first post on the board so hello everybody!

Offline Henry Lauder

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Re: Its a long way to Tel El-Kebir ...
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2011, 09:42:52 PM »
Thanks for the helpful replies - and apologies for the delay in replying answer_is_42, I was consumed by the task of revising someone else's book. How dare work get in the way of my lead adventures. lol Appreciate your efforts in providing links for this useful bunch of texts - they are going to form the basis of my Christmas book-buying spree.

Welcome thesnufkin! Appreciate your suggestion about a focus on Kassassin - sounds like having the British victory depending (at least in part) on terrain features will add an interesting new dimension. I've not read anything on the encounter yet so will follow it up. Will chase up the Battlegames article - thanks. Interesting what you say about the Egyptians - more and more this army intrigues me. It sounds like any rules use will need to adequately address the variety of 'quality' among their troops.

Thanks for a great first post. Hope you enjoy Lead Adventures - I've found it to be a very inspiring and helpful forum.

Cheers

Alan


« Last Edit: October 05, 2011, 09:44:34 PM by Henry Lauder »

 

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