lieutenant Egyptian battalion available now/28mm Maximillian range

[Arthur]

Arthur has promised to return but is a very busy man........!  

I'll be back (copyright Arnold Schwarzenneger, circa 1985 A.D)  

Got an enveloppe filled with printed paper I'm trying to get ready for Ged, so not much time for anything else at the mo' save the odd quick post on the Steve Dean forum.

Oh, and a plea to our Most Beloved Moderator, blessings be upon upon his Name : can we move the content pertaining to uniforms to a separate Maximilian Adventure resource thread as the past six pages have very little to do with the Gringo Egyptian Lieutenant ? We discussed it with Ged and thought that would be a good idea (was supposed to PM Plynkes about it, but something funny happened to time and last Thursday oddly feels like yesterday now).

[Arthur]

Like so many other I like the films Vera Cruz and Major Dundee. In both films, you can see lancers. In Vera Cruz mexican imperial soldiers and in Major Dundee french lancers.
In fact I cannot find these troops in Mexico. The french lancers are fantasy in Mexico. Right ? I've found only French Hussars and Chasseurs d'Afrique in the Mexican adventure.

Decades of experience as a nuclear scientist occasionally doubling as a rock star and a brain surgeon in my spare time have taught me not to put too much stock in Hollywood's idea of an 1860's French military uniform. So, yes, no more French lancers in Mexico than four-legged Imperial walkers crewed by clone stormtroopers, I'm afraid. The French cavalry division in Mexico was made up of two squadrons from the 5th hussars, the 5th and 6th squadrons from the 12th Chasseurs à cheval (joined by the 1st and 2nd in 1864), three squadrons from the 1st Chasseurs d'Afrique, two from the 2nd Chasseurs d'Afrique and two from the 3rd Chasseurs d'Afrique.

But what's with the imperial mexicans ?? I think they'll look awesome in their cuirassier uniforms with lances. But I cannot find such a troop - and, I would like to find it, love these troopers - .
Does anyone knows more ?

The cuirassier lancers in Vera Cruz are pure invention. The costume department appears to have singled out the Palatine Guards and decided they'd look way cooler if given cuirasses and lances.   

[gringo]

welcome back Arthur like you im buried under a pile of work

jumping between 1846-48......1861-67..and 1910 onwards good stuff though.

As mentioned there is lots underway and going on beneath the tranqil waters

of www.gringo40s.com

the cavalry update is most usefull thanks..........

best regards   Ged

[Arthur]

And to give you a little sumpthin' to salivate upon, how about mounted turcos ?

The French tried to make up for their lack of cavalry by raising mounted infantry units. These could ride either mules - in which case they were traditional mounted infantry who rode into action but fought dismounted - or horses, which effectively made them cavalry units who fought on horseback and would not hesitate to charge their foes. The FFL fielded two such companies by 1866 and the men apparently rode horses rather than mules. The 2nd Bataillon d'Afrique also set up a fifty man mounted troop in 1864. The first Zouave regiment had two mounted companies, one on horses and one on mules, whereas the 3rd Zouaves had their own mule company. I've already posted the pic of the mule-mounted zouaves in action, but here's a larger version of it (note the dismounted skirmishers on the left) :



The mounted Turcos were raised in 1864 from native Algerian tirailleurs who could ride - and apparently enjoyed their new role immensely. It was a pretty sizable unit, being about 180 strong, and it performed as light cavalry. Their mounts were swift Mexican horses and the saddlery was also obtained locally. The men's uniforms were adapted for their new function, the baggy trousers being replaced with slightly tighter white linen ones and the shoes and gaiters with soft leather cavalry boots with large Mexican spurs. The men also carried sabres tucked under their saddles, and often wore ponchos, their infantry muskets being worn slung across their backs chasseur d'Afrique-style. Headgear was the native Algerian fez worn without a turban. Below is a Eugene Leliepvre painting of mounted turcos published in issue 23 of Les Carnets de la Sabretache (though the figure on the left is a bit too tidy - the one on the right is closer to the reality of men on campaign) :



The mounted turcos appear to have been a very effective counter-guerrilla unit and often gave Mexican irregulars a run for their money. And they're highly colourful figures to boot.  

[gringo]

Arthur

cheers.......these are rather a tasty looking unit.........quite quite dramatic
 
and different......just read about them today and was off to find uniform info

and hey presto here it is.!!!!!!!! mon dieux!!

love both figures........these are crying out to be cast in pewter/tin.......

en avant mes enfant!!   best reagards  Ged  www.gringo40s.com

[joroas]

So, just how large is this range likely to be?   

[Koppi]

...So, yes, no more French lancers in Mexico than four-legged Imperial walkers crewed by clone stormtroopers

  Great answer.
Really good idea. I 'will think about it, to realise a squad. 

But ... in the 1840s lancer units were part of the mexican army. For example the 7th Lancers who fought at Palo Alto.
How does this, or maybe a similiar unit, looks in the 1860 ? Or was this troop type discontinued in the republican mexican army ??
Maybe you have a tipp, or a picture for gringo.

[gringo]

Joras

quite a big range old chap  until the sale of the family silver runs out!!

Koppi

The Mexicans had an abundance of lancers in 1846-48 in the Mexican-American

War with 10 line regiments ,Jalisco lancers..even the Hussars of the Supreme

power were lance armed. in Fact at Bueno Vista the Mexicans had 18 regiments

( or portions of ) present almost outstriping the foot sloggers. with the demise

of Sanata Anna ( he did try and turn up but was shown the door!!) the Mexican

army reverted to semi austere clothing and fewer lancers. the Imperial army had

lancers.....rather pretty.

regards
Ged  www.gringo40s.com

[Siaba]

Althought not denominated lancers, some republican cavalry unit stil fought with the lance. There is a nice painting of a fight between republican lancers and french counter-guerilla cavalry.
Or maybe the lance is just artistic licence, Arthur ?

[Kingscarbine]

Wow! This thread is becoming a great resource. Did you know we can still access the old Mexican Adventure site (although not all pages) through Internet Archive? Lots of good stuff there. http://web.archive.org/web/20091026223926/http://www.geocities.com/fenerator/mindex.htm

Another good resource for uniforms is the NYPL Vinkhuijzen collection of military uniforms
Mexican:
http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgtitle_tree.cfm?title_id=614962&level=2&tword=
Belgian:
http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgkeysearchresult.cfm?num=20&parent_id=120428&word=&snum=&s=&notword=&d=&c=&f=&k=0&sScope=&sLevel=&sLabel=&imgs=20&pNum=
And lots of French:
http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgtitle_tree.cfm?title_id=614958&level=2&tword=

Cheers

[gringo]

Nuno

thanks for the added links makes for even better reading now!!
an endless pot pourri of superb reference work

best regards
Ged

www.gringo40s.com
www.gringo40s.blogspot.com

[Arthur]

Althought not denominated lancers, some republican cavalry unit stil fought with the lance. There is a nice painting of a fight between republican lancers and french counter-guerilla cavalry

I assume you are referring to the famous 1868 painting by A. Beaucé :

Or maybe the lance is just artistic licence, Arthur ?

No, you are quite correct : the lance was indeed used by both the Republican and the Imperial cavalry. Republican irregulars were generally lance-armed, as were several Imperial regular cavalry regiments. According to René Chartrand, pennants were usually red for the Republicans and white for the Imperials. Some Imperial regiments had pretty outlandish uniforms, but none wore cuirasses. And no French lancers were involved in the campaign since none of the Lanciers regiments sent squadrons to Mexico.   

[Siaba]

Yes, Arthur, it was the painting I was refering to 

[gringo]

Arthur old chap heres one for you......1...were the"chassuers de france" the chassuers

de afrique?   

2. as was the abbreviated appelation for the african battalion as

Bat D;Af!.......as was the Chasseurs d Afrique, the same unit.?

dont want to miss any new units!!

best regards Ged

[Arthur]

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any French army unit bearing the name chasseurs de France during the Second Empire. The chasseurs à pied - i.e light infantry battalions - were known as the chasseurs d'Orléans during the 1840's as a tribute to the Duke of Orléans, but I am not aware of any unit called chasseurs de France in the 1860's. Could be a name or nickname used by some foreign observer who was not familiar with official French army terminology : what's your source for this ? The name certainly wasn't used by the Chasseurs d'Afrique in any case. I'll dig a little deeper and see if I can come up with something.

Bats d'Af (colloquial short form for bataillons d'Afrique) was the nickname given to the Infanterie légère d'Afrique, i.e the three light infantry battalions formed from volunteers, hard cases and former members of penal units and stationed in North Africa. They were part of the African army and distinct from the FFL. Like the Legion, they wore standard issue French infantry uniforms with some minor distinguishing features. Bat D'af tends to be a slightly later phrase : during the second empire, the men were more often known as the Zéphyrs or the Joyeux.