RCW Uniform Question

[ErikB]

Forgive my asking but I am quite overwhelmed by all the info on all the units and uniforms.

Simple questions: did Reds wear those blue pants with a stripe or was that for Cossacks, specifically?

And was a white blouse worn by Reds ever or was that reserved for Whites?

I ask because I will start painting soon and need to get these details sorted
Thanks.

[Captain Blood]

Never fear Erik, the experts will be here shortly 

[Mark Plant]

Very few Whites wore a white blouse into battle. It had been a dress item, for officers and cadets, previously, but not for rankers. So while a few turned up, it was never common.

Photos of whole uints of Whites all nicely turned out in white blouses invariably date from the Crimean period or later - long after the war finished. And most RCW photos of white blouses are HQ officers, not front line.

For a Red to wear an actual white blouse would be excedingly rare. Like wearing shoulderboards or braid.

There is also a separate issue, which is that the summer cotton blouse tended to bleach over time to a very pale colour. Almost white in extreme cases. This can be seen in photos quite commonly for rankers and officers.

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The Cossacks in the Red cavalry did wear the blue trousers with red stripe. It's what they had. And even from the start some Cossacks sided with the Reds. The Konnarmiya rankers were frequently Cossack, especially as the war went on.

I would not put my elite Red cavalry in Cossack trousers (in red trousers, perhaps). But if your army is southern, some mixed in would be quite fair.

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I understand being overwhelmed by the uniform information. What helped me was when I realised that deviations from WWI practice were actually pretty rare.

Reds mostly wore WWI uniforms stripped of shoulderboards, braid etc, and replaced by red stars and stripes. With  elite units mostly having a shoulder badge or, sometimes, coloured trousers. Later in the piece the spikey Budenovka and blouse and coat with tabs.

Whites wore WWI, albeit sometimes the dress version. Only the coloured regiment officers/cadets wore spiffing outfits (remembering sometimes whole units were officers/cadets).

[cuprum]

Subscribe to all of the above Mark.

 Konchno, available in different variations, but you can tell us about them only when you want to recreate in their figures any concrete military unit.

[ErikB]

Alright, so Vallejo Russian Green blouses and either Russian Green trousers or khaki for my Reds?  Since the Copplestone pack comes with two in pocketed blouses I was hoping for two different color combinations.

No blue pants for infantry?

What about these types of uniforms?
 http://otlichnik.tripod.com/m22ogpu.jpg

And who are the red elite infantry in that wonderful Back of Beyond. Com site?
Thanks for your responses, guys.

And to think my Polish & Lithuanian an record missed all this drama by barely 10 years way back then....

[cuprum]

Shades of uniforms may vary. Russian uniforms during the First World War, could vary considerably in color. As a result of washing and burning in the sun the color may become almost white.

 The blue pants in the Russian army relied cavalrymen. Wide color stripes on the pants were put only the Cossacks (and all the generals).

 I could not see the picture on your link.

 Elite units of the Red Army had the rare distinction in uniform. Although kursanty (cadets) often wore Side cap, internationalists (military units of foreign volunteers) at the initial stage could be elements of the old uniforms.
 Chervonye (Red) Cossacks - uniform is described here:

http://siberia-miniatures.ru/forum/showthread.php?fid=12&tid=23

[Mark Plant]

Russian re-enactors are a good source of uniform pictures in colour. You'll see virtually every shade of khaki you can imagine. (Note the overcoats were brown for rankers and grey for officers in WWI).

Of course many are either elite White units or Cossacks, but there still some dressed as Reds or simple Whites.

http://englishrussia.com/2011/11/13/the-brusilov-offensive/
http://englishrussia.com/2011/11/20/the-battle-for-the-red-petrograd-1919/
http://www.c20warfare.org/191421/RCWPage1.htm
http://www.c20warfare.org/191421/13thBRpage2.htm

This one is very good for the equipment:
http://www.c20warfare.org/191421/equipment1.htm

This site gives colour ideas too:
http://www.frontofrussia.com/army.html

[cuprum]

Mark - a very big mistake. Russian soldier's overcoat for a period of WWI and WWII - a light gray color.

 Officer's - had a gray color little blue.

 The brown overcoat appeared in the Soviet army in 1960. Differed from earlier only in color.
 Of course, during the war, his coat was made from fabrics of different colors, including from abroad purchased fabric. Could meet and brown coat. But this is more the exception than the rule.
  A reenactors easier to get brown overcoat, as they are still in abundance in military warehouses and attics. I myself as a young man served in the Army and my house is kept a brown overcoat. By the way - and in feature films is dominated by brown coat for the same reason.

 Officer's overcoat color never changed. It has always been a gray with a blue tint.



Left - right: officer (two rows of buttons) overcoat, a soldier's overcoat authentic, late Soviet overcoat, random sample raincoat.


According to the last link - a lot of fakes disgusting qualities of historical analogies. Lipa!!!

[ErikB]

Thanks for this information, guys!  I appreciate it.

So, regarding the Copplestone Bolshie Officers, is it valid to make one swordsman (if you know the figures) with a green top and khaki bottoms, and another with a khaki top highlighted up to an off-white stone (like dheneb stone) and green trousers.

I got an example, green and gray, for the pointy-hat guy.

And what paint color would we say that very pale slightly green gray coat is?  The guy standing next to the double-breasted jacket.  Anyone know that color in Vallejo or Citadel paints?

Eastern Europeans have such a curious sense of colors, shades of greens, blues, that are different from what is common in the US.  It's a nice aesthetic but hard to describe these colors in words.

[Mark Plant]

ErikB -- the different distinctions between colours is indeed a major issue. Blue is the worst – if I understand correctly the Russians think of what we think of as different shades of "blue" as entirely separate colours. (Siniy and Goluboy?)

Anyway, I can see why Cuprum gets worked up about me calling the WWI rankers overcoat "brown" because of the confusion with later coats. Having had a re-look at colour pictures from the WWI period, I have to say that I would still call many of the WWI rankers coat "brown" - although admittedly towards the grey end, and not the colour that Cuprum points out in his latest post as totally wrong. Words do let us down here, where pictures are better. What I call "brown" is presumably what others see as grey.

I found the Russian WWI Osprey was really good value when painting my units. Paint them the colours Cuprum shows in that photo - the name of the colour is immaterial.

[ErikB]

Actually, I think we'd be wise discussing these different Russian shades by Vallejo names. 

I'm learning so much by reading these and other links!  It's really the coolest part of this hobby!  Thanks so much to all your answers!

[sepoy1857]

Erik,
Check out Vallejo Panzer Aces for a lot of good khaki/green/drab shades. Also Foundry: Drab, Moss, and Rawhide (these are the paints I use..well and others). You really can't go wrong with any of these.