28mm African Wars Portuguese

[the commissar]

Thanks - great info.

It looks like the Bolt Action Humber Mk IV is available again (via WArlord Games) -

http://store.warlordgames.com/humber-armoured-car-mk-iv-1760-p.asp

Was the M3 Scout car used at all?

[Arlequín]

Good stuff! You mentioned that the EBR-VTT wasn't used outside of Portugal.. but then mentioned that it accompanied the EBR-10. Just to clear up any confusion...



You might have to save and enlarge the picture but, the second vehicle from the front is an EBR-VTT (Angola).



A better one from Mozambique.

As for tanks...



I originally thought that this might have been taken in Portugal before the guy shipped out, but the tank sits on dirt, rather than the concrete you'd expect in a military base in Portugal. It's an M-24 by the looks of it and I haven't seen another picture of one as yet, so make of this what you will.

Apparently three M5 Stuart tanks were deployed in Northern Angola and were named ‘Milocas’, ‘Licas’ and ‘Gina’ by their crews. They were used for convoy escort and ops against the FNLA and withdrawn in 1972. Other than this I'm not aware of any mention of armour in use, other than armoured cars.  

The point remains that regardless of how many tanks were in the colonies, they weren't available in numbers, nor used to any great extent when available.

As for the M3 question, although I haven't researched extensively, I can't say I've ever seen a photo of one either. I was tempted to think that when the 'M3' is mentioned, they may be confusing it with the Panhard M3 VTT, the APC built on the chassis of the AML armoured car, but I've never seen a photo of one of those either, nor am I aware of Portugal even buying it. Production started on it in 1971, so I'm guessing that it's a blind alley too.

There's quite a bit of confusion surrounding written 'history' of the Portuguese Colonial Wars, so I tend to go with the photos. Unimogs and Berliet 'Gazelles' in abundance, with a few various jeeps, in the main. Chaimite and EBR-VTT personnel carriers, AML and EBR armoured cars and 'Dingo' scout cars, all work for me. I will be avoiding using the Alvis 'Fox', which I've seen mentioned as 'being used by the Portuguese', despite production on it only starting in 1973.

 

[starkadder]

Are you going to Cancon?

That would be a good thing to know, Helen. I'm aiming for the 28th with Blackwolf and the Kardinal.

[starkadder]

Carlos. I understand that the Portuguese military archives are almost useless due to neglect and destruction. Is this true? I was told by an old archivist with a military research bent.

[carlos marighela]

Good stuff! You mentioned that the EBR-VTT wasn't used outside of Portugal.. but then mentioned that it accompanied the EBR-10. Just to clear up any confusion...

You might have to save and enlarge the picture but, the second vehicle from the front is an EBR-VTT (Angola).



A better one from Mozambique.

As for tanks...



I originally thought that this might have been taken in Portugal before the guy shipped out, but the tank sits on dirt, rather than the concrete you'd expect in a military base in Portugal. It's an M-24 by the looks of it and I haven't seen another picture of one as yet, so make of this what you will.

Apparently three M5 Stuart tanks were deployed in Northern Angola and were named ‘Milocas’, ‘Licas’ and ‘Gina’ by their crews. They were used for convoy escort and ops against the FNLA and withdrawn in 1972. Other than this I'm not aware of any mention of armour in use, other than armoured cars.  

The point remains that regardless of how many tanks were in the colonies, they weren't available in numbers, nor used to any great extent when available.

As for the M3 question, although I haven't researched extensively, I can't say I've ever seen a photo of one either. I was tempted to think that when the 'M3' is mentioned, they may be confusing it with the Panhard M3 VTT, the APC built on the chassis of the AML armoured car, but I've never seen a photo of one of those either, nor am I aware of Portugal even buying it. Production started on it in 1971, so I'm guessing that it's a blind alley too.

There's quite a bit of confusion surrounding written 'history' of the Portuguese Colonial Wars, so I tend to go with the photos. Unimogs and Berliet 'Gazelles' in abundance, with a few various jeeps, in the main. Chaimite and EBR-VTT personnel carriers, AML and EBR armoured cars and 'Dingo' scout cars, all work for me. I will be avoiding using the Alvis 'Fox', which I've seen mentioned as 'being used by the Portuguese', despite production on it only starting in 1973.

 

Yes the VTT was used in Angola, what I meant was that use of the VTT was unique to the Portuguese Army. Panhard made a number of prototypes but the French Army wasn't interested in them. Apparently, there's one in Saumur, which has two turrets, front and rear. The Portuguese version carried one at the front as shown in your photos. By the by the turret was the same one as on the AMX 13 VTT. Sorry, I should have made that clearer. Nice photos btw.

Portugal bought a lot of WW2 surplus or was gifted it through MAP in the 1950s. Hence the GMC armoured cars, trucks and the M-24s. I've seen that photo of the M-24 before. I suspect it was taken in Portugal at the cavalry school. M-24s were employed as the recce element of M-47 tank battalions and those were not deployed to Africa.  You are quite right about the Stuarts, that was done on an experimental basis. There does seem to be a bit of confusion out there. The Osprey claims a photo of a Ferret with the crew in French helmets as Portuguese. If it is then it's a strange picture as the licence plate has the initial letter codes for the Portuguese Air Force!

As Jim's post demonstrates there are a lot of sites by groups or individual ex-combatants, so there's a very rich source of photos on the web.

[carlos marighela]

Carlos. I understand that the Portuguese military archives are almost useless due to neglect and destruction. Is this true? I was told by an old archivist with a military research bent.

I don't believe that to be true, although Nuno is certainly better qualified to answer than I. I think there are periods that are poorly covered, the Lisbon earthquake of 1755 certainly wasn't a gift to the historian, although that said sufficient information remains for a quite comprehensive picture of colonial era Portugal. You only have to look at the canon of CM Boxer to demonstrate that. As for the period in question, there's sufficient information for there to have been a flood of quite detailed books on the subject, I know, I own a number. Some things are still under embargo oddly enough. There was a recent and very informative book on Operation Green Seas (Operação Mar Verde) the Portuguese raid to topple the government of neighbouring Guinea-Conakry. When it came out it was revealed that quite a bit was still under wraps due to the sensitivity of the operation, it was a diplomatic disaster for Portugal. As an aside, if you are ever looking for a real boy's own scenario, Cockleshell heros meets The Dogs of War/Wild Geese it's worth looking into this operation.

I think the principal issue is that of language. Few enough people outside of the Lusophony are prepared to learn the language, which is a pity on a variety of levels (it's a beautiful language to start with). Maybe more will, now that Brazil, the largest Portuguese speaking country, has overtaken Britain to be the world's fifth largest economy.  

I haven't attended CanCon for the better part of twenty years and as it happens my presence is required at a baptism that weekend so, alas, I won't be up. I'm sure Nic will be taking a selection of the latst toys, there are some additions to other ranges I'm sure you'll be interested in too. Would love to catch up with you and Helen at some point in the future.

[Helen]

That would be a good thing to know, Helen. I'm aiming for the 28th with Blackwolf and the Kardinal.

I'll be there on Friday. Not sure yet if I'll enter into the painting contest. Will speak to Nic to ensure that the Portuguese come up too.

Need to speak with Brent to see if the idea of an EBR could be covered considering Nic will be stocking some of the Post-War/Modern vehicles to cover the miniatures he produces from my understanding.

Thanks Carlos, hopefully we will see you sometime in the next few years, God willing.

Cheers,

Helen

[Arlequín]

I've always thought that the conflicts offered an ideal setting for 28mm gaming... the Portuguese even went to the trouble of creating independent reconnaissance units that were just the right size and mixture of toys for the average gaming table. 

It's never going to be as popular an era as Vietnam, but I feel it offers more because of that. The Portuguese forces are relatively low-tech and calling for 'Air' or 'Artillery' to solve a tactical problem isn't often an option. It's all infantry action for the most part.

An EBR model would be great, as would the APC, but primarily it's the Unimog that's missing imo. I haven't had Carlos' luck on e-bay and given the choice I'd prefer to buy resin vehicles anyway. I suppose it's very difficult to gauge how sellable something might be; Post-War gaming is a niche interest, mainly I believe to the lack of figures/vehicles available. It's a revolving argument really, as no toys equals no interest and no interest equals no toys.

So to paraphrase Janis Joplin "Oh Brent, won't you make me a Mercedes Benz". 

[Poiter50]

I have a spare Solido Panhard AML H90F1 if any of you are interested? PM if so.

[carlos marighela]

I've always thought that the conflicts offered an ideal setting for 28mm gaming... the Portuguese even went to the trouble of creating independent reconnaissance units that were just the right size and mixture of toys for the average gaming table. 

I wholeheartedly agree. Fascinating conflict with endless variety and I share your view that it's in many ways a more interesting conflict to game than Vietnam and easier on the wallet. The intervention forces, the paras, marines and commandos were organised in an ideal manner for gaming, 5 X groups of 5 or 25 to a platoon.

The one thing that's really missing are helicopters and more so than any other post war conflict, save Vietnam it was a helicopter war.  Finding suitable Alouette IIIs is a tough task. There is an old Fujimi model out there, which is supposedly 1/48 (more like 1/55-1/60) but they are rarer than hen's teeth, expensive as a result and frankly they are a bloody awful kit to put together. I was weeping tears of blood to get the canopy sections of the one I found together. Not a happy experience and lots of sanding and filling later I might have something that could be tabled.

Heller did some in 1/72 but these aren't easy to find either. My heartfelt plea would be for someone to make a decent Alouette III either as a plastic kit or as a resin gaming piece. Actually given how much service they have seen and continue to see worldwide I'm surprised nobody has tackled the subject.

Until my parayers are answered I think I might resort to an idea I saw on LAF, making semi 3-D representations.

[carlos marighela]

I have a spare Solido Panhard AML H90F1 if any of you are interested? PM if so.

Alas not fielded by the Portuguese during the war. Radically different turret for the 60mm mortar armed version too.

[v_lazy_dragon]

The matchbow superkings unimog is about 1/50th scale, and matches up pretty well with 28mm figures IMO. It tends to be fairly cheap too - although it has the later angular cab and bonnet rather than the earlier rounded one, so it might not be to everyone's authenticity tastes. Apparently one of the Corgi unimogs has the rounded components and is a smidge smaller than the matchbox one... but I've not been able to get hold of one yet to confirm...

[carlos marighela]

Now a couple of corrections to an earlier post, where I said I had never seen a photo of a White halftrack in Africa. I've just had another look at Afonso & Gomes' Guerra Colonial and sure enough there's one tucked away in a column of GMC trucks, it's even captioned as such. Looks like Guiné. I even found a photo of a Berliet mounting a quad.50 cal AA mounting for convoy duty. Exactly like thos gun trucks in Vietnam.

As for Humbers well I was right in that none served in Africa only the GMC Fox clone. However there were a samll number of Humbers in Macau in the period and apparently some in Goa prior to its capture by the Indians.

By the by, if anyone is looking for a one stop shop for references, the above book is probably as close as it gets. Short of buying the five volume official history it's probably the best thing out there.  It's a big folio format hardback, nigh on 700 pages, full of photos, maps details on weapons, tactics, organisation it's a wargamer's treasure trove. It even has some cute photos of models of various aircraft, vehicles and troops made by Portuguse modellers. Pretty hard to beat. Now if there was an English version I'm sure this period would really become popular.

And for those wanting to see some film footage of many of the vehicles used in the war, it's worth checking out the film Capitães De Abril about the 1974 revolution. Great film and it uses a lot of kit contemporary to the war.

[starkadder]

Heller did some in 1/72 but these aren't easy to find either.

They were as bad as the Fujimi to put together.

I don't know why people are so obsessed with scale parity when air sea and land operations are involved (with the honourable exception of amphibian vehicles). Using 1/72 air units on a 1/56 or 1/48 land scale battle is entirely acceptable as far as I'm concerned. You simply establish a ZOC around a stationary helo for range and firing purposes.   

[carlos marighela]

Actually I  quite agree, the Fujimi model just happened to be the first I could find . Most of my aircraft are 1/72. They are essentially 3 dimensional counters anyway. 1/72 gives you a better range of models, they are more easily stored and take up less space on a table. For similar reasons I use quite a bit of 1/72 scale terrain with 28mm. Smaller footprint.

I've subsequently discovered that Solido did a diecast Alouette III apparently in a useful scale.