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Author Topic: The Peoples and Creatures of Middle Earth,5th Round,LPL6 ?  (Read 22717 times)

Offline Blue in vt

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Re: The Peoples and Creatures of Middle Earth,5th Round,LPL6 ?
« Reply #45 on: February 02, 2012, 04:30:41 PM »

Personally, I think this is a zillion times closer to Tolkien's vision / description of the Mumakil in the garden of Ithilien, than any pile of Warhammer Fantasy Battles crap.

Richard...you know I respect your opinion and love your work...but this kind of attitude is getting a bit abrasive for me...There are some of us who actually like WFB...particularly the old versions.  Am I claiming that its Tolkein's world... no...The mythology may be based on the same species...but it is its own thing.  I could make a similar argument about pirate games and their "historical" inaccuracies....are they loosely based on historical events/people... yes...are they true to history...no they are games!

I just think this kind of bashing is unnecessary....I'm happy to read everyone's opinions of what they think about the ME races...but we don't need to slam other folks interests at the same time.

Just My .02 cents...

Blue
« Last Edit: February 02, 2012, 04:37:34 PM by Blue in vt »
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Offline Captain Blood

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Re: The Peoples and Creatures of Middle Earth,5th Round,LPL6 ?
« Reply #46 on: February 02, 2012, 04:53:12 PM »
Oooh yes. That was a bit abrasive was't it?
Still, one man's abrasive is another's vigorous debate  ;)

Tolkien created a unique and beautiful world which millions of people fell in love with.
Then a load of other people came along, took that beautiful thing and built on it, distorted it, and generally bastardised it (partly for art, mainly for money) - so that the original beautiful thing is no longer recognisable under a great encrustation of other stuff.
Games Workshop (who in many ways I love, as a successful British company contributing much needed exports to our balance of payments) have been at the forefront of this with their 'orks' and other assorted Tolkien-derived concepts...
So I'm glad we're having this discussion. Because it reminds me that Tolkien did have a vision for what the various fantasy peoples he invented looked like. I think that's worth keeping sight of, no matter how other interests have come in and played fast and loose with his ideas.




Offline Blue in vt

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Re: The Peoples and Creatures of Middle Earth,5th Round,LPL6 ?
« Reply #47 on: February 02, 2012, 05:11:03 PM »
Fair enough....discussion is good...I'll try to be a bit less sensitive... ;)

I would say though that at least GW calls their world something else entirely...even if its "based" on the same mythology.  I find the Peter Jackson "interpretation" more offensive because he calls it the Lord of the Rings....but it actually has little imagery in common with the original...at  least the original in my mind... o_o  And what really drives me batty is that the imagery that he used is now considered "The Correct Imagery" in the general populaces mind....when as this discussion has pointed out...their is no right interpretation (other than the one in your own imagination.)

  I wonder what Tolkien himself would have thought of the movies.

What I have found most enlightening about this discussion is the, now apparent, lack of detail about these subjects that he put into the books...Despite the ENORMOUS detail he built into the development and descriptions of places, history, languages etc....he left a lot about the "races" to the imagination....its an interesting juxtaposition.

Cheers,

Blue

Offline FramFramson

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Re: The Peoples and Creatures of Middle Earth,5th Round,LPL6 ?
« Reply #48 on: February 02, 2012, 07:05:17 PM »
This. Totally and unequivocally. Minifigs 'Mythical Earth' range might have been somewhat basic quality by today's standards (well it was, what, 1976?) but surely came closest to the fairly uncomplicated look of the peoples, arms and armour Tolkien describes in the Lord of the Rings. And some lovely character in certain of the figures.

(With the possible exception of the balrog, which resembled a cuddly lion mascot in a romper suit!)

I too actually love the Peter Jackson films, which were massively influenced by John Howe and Alan Lee. It's just a different vision of Tolkien's world, and one which isn't actually very true to the book. Far too ornate / gothic / baroque, in all sorts of ways, and influenced by far too many other mythic and design ideas which just aren't in the Lord of the Rings. Before they ever got to work on the films, Howe and Lee, with their endless Tolkien calendars down the last 30 years, plus game design artwork and much else besides, are probably the two men most responsible for subverting Tolkien's own idea of Middle Earth, and replacing it with their own much more ornate vision in the popular imagination.

Personally, I think this is a zillion times closer to Tolkien's vision / description of the Mumakil in the garden of Ithilien, than any pile of Warhammer Fantasy Battles crap.

So did I!  lol
God those Normans were good (at the time).  ;)

That's the thing, really. Tolkien's own descriptions of the level of "technology" in Middle earth were of a roughly seventh-century world. The Gondorians were more akin to Byzantines, echoing old Roman glory than any sort of high medieval knights.

Saxons, early Carolingians, Vikings, late Goths, and Byzantines are all close to the sort of thing. Very early Muslims or Maygars/Huns etc. for the southern and eastern folks.

When I think of John Howe, it's more for the Elder days stuff, or anything related to the "Magic" of middle earth. Howe is one of the few artists to use appropriate restraint when it comes to the more supernatural elements of Tolkien's life, he's also got a great grasp of landscape and how the geography dominates the storytelling in Tolkien's work. His pictures are the best depiction of an undeveloped world, made up largely of daunting wildernesses and there's a clean simplicity about the landscapes AND people that fits a post-roman world. I think that's something the other folks like Naismith or Lee have missed.

Anyway, Howe's depictions aren't without errors, but I think he gets more right than most.


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Offline area23

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Re: The Peoples and Creatures of Middle Earth,5th Round,LPL6 ?
« Reply #49 on: February 02, 2012, 07:35:11 PM »
Quote from: Jordanes
" a savage race, which dwelt at first in the swamps, a stunted, foul and puny tribe, scarcely human, and having no language save one which bore but slight resemblance to human speech."

Quote from: Jordanes
"They made their foes flee in horror because their swarthy aspect was fearful, and they had, if I may call it so, a sort of shapeless lump, not a head, with pin-holes rather than eyes. Their hardihood is evident in their wild appearance, and they are beings who are cruel to their children on the very day they are born. For they cut the cheeks of the males with a sword, so that before they receive the nourishment of milk they must learn to endure wounds. Hence they grow old beardless and their young men are without comeliness, because a face furrowed by the sword spoils by its scars the natural beauty of a beard. They are short in stature, quick in bodily movement, alert horsemen, broad shouldered, ready in the use of bow and arrow, and have firm-set necks which are ever erect in pride. Though they live in the form of men, they have the cruelty of wild beasts."
Jordanes' description of the Huns. 551 AD.
I'm sure Tolkien was inspired much by these kind of reports when he created the orcs.
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Offline Doomhippie

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Re: The Peoples and Creatures of Middle Earth,5th Round,LPL6 ?
« Reply #50 on: February 02, 2012, 08:38:50 PM »
Gee, that's pretty close to describing orcs (minus the horsemanship). I have always pictured the "Easterlings" as Huns (in the original meaning of the word). But Jordanes really goes to town here.

Well, I guess Tolkien did indeed leave out most details, yet he somehow makes us believe we know what the various cultures look like. That's really what makes reading his books so fascinating. I basically agree with the idea that Middle-Earth is closer to early medieval times (pre 1000AD) than later periods. Somehow I never managed to get this Roman Empire = Gondor notion. I've always pictured the Dunedain to be more mid to north European (maybe because of this grey eyed, fair-skinned description or maybe because Arnor was a northern country). However, the way the culture is described I agree that the Roman heritage sounds reasonable.
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Offline Plynkes

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Re: The Peoples and Creatures of Middle Earth,5th Round,LPL6 ?
« Reply #51 on: February 02, 2012, 09:00:32 PM »
Wargamers and roleplayers love to put things in boxes, don't they?  :) All over the internet you see Gondor is this, Rohan is that, based on not much at all really. Tolkien never really much went in for describing what things looked like in any detail. He left huge visual gaps which people fill with their own imagination (hence all the (angry) disagreement, I guess).

So Tolkien is set in the Dark Ages? Yet there is a small part of Middle Earth where they have pubs, tobacco, waistcoats with buttons and pockets and gunpowder fireworks. Sounds more like 18th Century England to me.  ;)
« Last Edit: February 02, 2012, 09:02:23 PM by Plynkes »
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Offline Captain Blood

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Re: The Peoples and Creatures of Middle Earth,5th Round,LPL6 ?
« Reply #52 on: February 02, 2012, 09:08:53 PM »

What I have found most enlightening about this discussion is the, now apparent, lack of detail about these subjects that he put into the books...Despite the ENORMOUS detail he built into the development and descriptions of places, history, languages etc....he left a lot about the "races" to the imagination....its an interesting juxtaposition.


That's a great insight. I guess as a linguist and academic, Tolkien was deeply interested in inventing / describing in great detail those aspects of his mythical cultures that relate to intellectual concepts: language, story, song, history and so on. Yet he paid only cursory attention to more low-brow / material manifestations of culture like physical appearance, dress, arms, armour, architecture and so on.

Unfortunately, these are the visual, tangible aspects which artists, filmmakers, games companies, gamers and just about everybody else are most interested in - because they are the outer portrayal of Tolkien's world and its peoples. Most people aren't that interested in the inner portrayal of language, culture and genealogy that clearly fascinated Tolkien so much.

So I guess it's unsurprising that people have felt free to impose their own visions and interpretations of what this should have looked like. The problem is that most of these third party versions, whether Peter Jackson's or Games Workshop's, ride roughshod over the few clues and descriptions which Tolkien did include...

Except for the Shire, of course. Most people seem to manage to get hobbits right  :)
(Probably because they are the one 'race' which Tolkien described in a huge amount of detail).

Offline Steve F

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Re: The Peoples and Creatures of Middle Earth,5th Round,LPL6 ?
« Reply #53 on: February 02, 2012, 09:09:45 PM »
I enjoy seeing different interpretations of the same source material, though sometimes they are a little odd.  The one I could never reconcile myself to was the Ralph Bakshi movie's portrayal of Boromir as a sort of Victorian idea of a Viking, in horned helmet and fur leotard.  The mind boggles at what Gondor would have looked like if he'd ever been able to make the sequel.
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Offline Captain Blood

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Re: The Peoples and Creatures of Middle Earth,5th Round,LPL6 ?
« Reply #54 on: February 02, 2012, 09:12:17 PM »
The one I could never reconcile myself to was the Ralph Bakshi movie's portrayal of Boromir as a sort of Victorian idea of a Viking, in horned helmet and fur leotard.  The mind boggles at what Gondor would have looked like if he'd ever been able to make the sequel.

Me too. That one was definitely weird  :)

Offline Plynkes

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Re: The Peoples and Creatures of Middle Earth,5th Round,LPL6 ?
« Reply #55 on: February 02, 2012, 09:12:41 PM »
I loved the cartoon Balrog, mind. I found it far more frightening than the Peter Jackson computer-generated one.

But then I was a tiny tot when I saw the first one. That may have something to do with it.  :)

Offline Mister Rab

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Re: The Peoples and Creatures of Middle Earth,5th Round,LPL6 ?
« Reply #56 on: February 02, 2012, 09:42:50 PM »
...really don't like John Howe...

Sorry! Brainfart - I wrote Howe but meant Naismith. Howe I like, Naismith not so much.


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Offline FramFramson

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Re: The Peoples and Creatures of Middle Earth,5th Round,LPL6 ?
« Reply #57 on: February 02, 2012, 09:43:32 PM »
Gee, that's pretty close to describing orcs (minus the horsemanship). I have always pictured the "Easterlings" as Huns (in the original meaning of the word). But Jordanes really goes to town here.

Well, I guess Tolkien did indeed leave out most details, yet he somehow makes us believe we know what the various cultures look like. That's really what makes reading his books so fascinating. I basically agree with the idea that Middle-Earth is closer to early medieval times (pre 1000AD) than later periods. Somehow I never managed to get this Roman Empire = Gondor notion. I've always pictured the Dunedain to be more mid to north European (maybe because of this grey eyed, fair-skinned description or maybe because Arnor was a northern country). However, the way the culture is described I agree that the Roman heritage sounds reasonable.

The scant descriptions of Gondorian gear are closer to Carolingian outfits than Roman ones - and winged helmets is even more a northern thing. Certainly they're not dressed in Caligae and Lorica with Gallic helmets, but there a dash of the late classical world in there.

I expect you might not be far off by mixing Carolingian dress with some Roman touches. But Byzantine gear wouldn't be too far off either, being a mix of northern European imports, Parthian gear, and old Roman parts.

Wargamers and roleplayers love to put things in boxes, don't they?  :) All over the internet you see Gondor is this, Rohan is that, based on not much at all really. Tolkien never really much went in for describing what things looked like in any detail. He left huge visual gaps which people fill with their own imagination (hence all the (angry) disagreement, I guess).

So Tolkien is set in the Dark Ages? Yet there is a small part of Middle Earth where they have pubs, tobacco, waistcoats with buttons and pockets and gunpowder fireworks. Sounds more like 18th Century England to me.  ;)

Well, the Shire is very much a sort of idealized memory of a childhood England that never was - by Tolkien's own admission.

Offline Hammers

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Re: The Peoples and Creatures of Middle Earth,5th Round,LPL6 ?
« Reply #58 on: February 03, 2012, 07:09:13 AM »
The scant descriptions of Gondorian gear are closer to Carolingian outfits than Roman ones - and winged helmets is even more a northern thing.

There is little evidence that winged or horned helmets were used in any other function than ceremonial in the ancient age. Vikings adorned their helmets no more with that than they did with bananas.

Even in Roman times they seem to have been a bit of a theatrical attribute, something to clad images of Gods and exotic persons with.

Offline Doomhippie

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Re: The Peoples and Creatures of Middle Earth,5th Round,LPL6 ?
« Reply #59 on: February 03, 2012, 02:15:04 PM »
I watched the Bakshi movie before reading the books... But since then I've grown beyond said movie, though I do have a very soft spot for it. The balrog was cool, the black riders extremely cool (before shedding their cloaks, after that they look more like terminators on an acid trip), Gollum was world class. It's little wonder that PJ paid tribute to these scenes and designs.

I admit Boromir was a complete failure in Bakshi's movie, but it took me some time to get over that. Until I saw Sean Bean I had actually never developed a clear picture of Boromir in my mind. And I still believe that Sean Bean does not fit the physical description of a Dunadan. However, his acting skills and the way he was presented by PJ really made me overlook that little grievance. Probably the most fascinating character in the movie.

 

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