Vapnartak... no bring and buy

[Meier_Elf_Fanatic]

Well, Vapnartak has no bring and buy this weekend, but is using a tabletop sale system which costs £1 for a fixed 30 minute session.

30 minutes, that's it... no more.

Now as an organiser of B&B's for 20 years at one of the UK's largest events I can see BIG probs with this;

1. Someone who is not a 'known face' trader can shift a lot of painted stuff in 30 minutes. This leaves the system open for abuse and allows a potentially large profit to be made for £1 of outgoings, possibly pissing off traders who are going the 'legit' route.

2. It may mean that you have ridiculous numbers of people all staying in the hall all day just to catch a potentially fruitful 30 minute feeding frenzy.

3. Sellers will clutter corridors doing deals there. I saw this two years ago when there WAS a B&B there (the most insecure I have seen in a decade - trust me, you could have had it away with a few armies that day totally undetected).

4. And simply displaying your goods properly on a 3x2 foot table will seriously eat into the 30 minutes.

5. A well run B&B generates cash which I would say mostly goes to traders and thereby ups a show's financial viability. That said if I were to run a B&B I would need to clear 3-4K of sales just to cover the costs of staffing properly. The club cannot staff it themselves apparently, so what's the options? The thought of a B&B crewed by a group of dealers makes me shudder in ways that are most unpleasant as then it is generally no more than a much larger trade stand at a bargain price if the efforts I have seen by such groups are anything to go by. Ethical seems to go out of the window.



That said, if anyone is taking any Citadel Space Farers to flog, let me know and I'll cut a deal now and see you there.

[Lowtardog]

I went last year and decided to flog some lead, its very well managed, the queue is kept to a minimum for those looking to buy. I bought an hour and was able to flog my stuff off after around 45 minutes.

The benefits I suppose
1. organisers, no hassle accounting for minis, removes cash, handling people writing tickets (I helped at the Border Reiver B&B and one guy turned up with near 400 lots which he then sat and wrote tickets out for!!!!) and theft whihc sadly is common or lost items
2. Sales - you get to haggle and sell your goods for a price that suits either your pocket or for quick cash, the choice is up to you, for me this resulted in quick sales and some knock down to shift the items, so you need to re adjust your thoughts on sales as in a trad B&B you put your price on and pop  back now and again maybe reducing the price towards the end of the stay, however if you have limited time at a show it lets you get it over with as quick as possible.
3. Punters, no gain really other than possibly haggling and getting a better deal as you can talk to the seller rather than the ticket is the price and thats it. And if you pop in now and again you will pick up bargains (a common perception is the organisers of B&B stals get first dibs, this eliminates it.


I dont see an issue with unknown traders affecting legitimate traders as in effect e-bay already exists where you have a multidue of traders both registered and not out there. The table is a means of quick cash with only a couple of blokes contorlling the crowd taking the cash for the rental, so yes affects the cash for the club but they must cover it with the entrance fees and trade stands. I thik they limited the number of 30 minute sessions from memory to avoid the issue you mention of hirnig a cheap table

[Meier_Elf_Fanatic]

Well balanced response there LTD...

We always sent people away with the paperwork and ran multiple booking in and one pay-out point, dealing only with completed sheets at the 'in' and total pay off at the 'out'. No price drops once they were on.

We recently went down 20 years of booking sheets and found 12 missing lots out of approx 40,000.

But again that's down to hard rules and harder staff


Glad it worked for you.

[Lowtardog]

Well balanced response there LTD...

We always sent people away with the paperwork and ran multiple booking in and one pay-out point, dealing only with completed sheets at the 'in' and total pay off at the 'out'. No price drops once they were on.

We recently went down 20 years of booking sheets and found 12 missing lots out of approx 40,000.

But again that's down to hard rules and harder staff


Glad it worked for you.

No problems, I have always used bring and buys and they can vary widely, having worked behind one last year I dont envy anyone the task. Your comments on the abuse though by a trader does give pause for thought though. I have a few bits to shift (ships and buildings so will give it a bash again this year and let you know how        I got on

[Meier_Elf_Fanatic]

Addressing the point of B&B staff 'scaffing' stuff, I allowed my staff one purchase over a weekend and that had to be paid for immediately and with the 10%.

Originally, I banned the whole practice.

They certainly could NOT stick it back on the stall for a mark-up.

As I said - ethics.

[fastolfrus]

That said, if anyone is taking any Citadel Space Farers to flog, let me know and I'll cut a deal now and see you there.

Which ones are you looking for?

[Meier_Elf_Fanatic]

All and any to be honest.. I am a gamer to a figure fetishist

(looks over shoulder for Dozing Dragon)

[Faber]

I'm not used to go to convention so...would you please tell me what is a "B&B"? 
shame on me for my ignorance 

[joroas]

Bring and Buy: A stall run by the convention where you leave stuff you want to sell to others.  A bit like an eBay store.

[The Dozing Dragon]

All and any to be honest.. I am a gamer to a figure fetishist

(looks over shoulder for Dozing Dragon)

Who what me? 

[Johan]

We used to run a B&B for several years at our show untill checking the lists became virtually impossible, more items appeared stolen/lost then ever and someone knicked a part of the hard earned cash. On top of that more and more clubmembers were getting involved so that people selling could go and look at the new stuuf while our members were so swamped that they didn't even have the time to go and buy something themselves. Then people started to appear with boxes full of the same blisters , went home for the day and came back by the time it was pay-out. All of these reasons made that we turned things around and started to organise a Bring and Sell for which we supplied tables and a chair. No more hassles wth lists, stolen items, cash dissapearing and members who were bugged down the whole day. For the revenue of the club it was more or less a equal result (certainly if we had to pay for lost or stolen goods). And as stated before it made people more prone to be able to discuss prices. Most "traders" of the B&S as we call it came in pairs so they could see the show as well. Now we're back to the same amount of "traders" as we had when we were doing all the work, except no more people getting rid of tons of blisters. They probably had a store to run whilst their old stuff sat on our tables.
For us it was the only option other than risking a member-revolt (in Belgium there aren't as many shows as in the UK I'm afraid so it's more of a once in a year opportunity for us)
No criticism intended for people who do run a B&B succesfully. If it works for you all the better, but for us it was time to change.

[Faber]

Bring and Buy: A stall run by the convention where you leave stuff you want to sell to others.  A bit like an eBay store.

thanks

[joroas]

I take an annual stall at the Bristol one in May, always worthwhile.  Used to put a lot on B&Bs but some had a habit of cherry-picking the good stuff before it went on sale or put your stuff on the back where no-one saw it. 

The one at Warfare in Reading is good but gave up even looking at the one at Colours in Newbury.

[Steve F]

Note: in other contexts, a "B&B" is a "Bed and Breakfast": a basic, small hotel.  You are, however, unlikely to find these at most wargames shows.

[Aubrey]

Hello,

I am a member of York Wargames Society. Last year I helped out on the Table Top Sale on the booking in desk between 10 & 1. This year I was asked to organise the Table Top Sale and I also did 'front of house' (basically streaming buyers and sellers at the entrance, answering any questions, keeping the flow going through that sort of thing) between 10 & 1. One of the nice things about doing 'front of house' is you get to chat to lots of people. Somebody asked me when I was doing this if I had seen the guy "spouting off" on the Lead Adventurer Forum about the Table Top Sale. Now I hadn't because I haven't been on here before (I frequent TMP as Aubrey). So with the show out the way (and after catching breath) I came and had a look, found this thread (which I assume is the one referred to), Registered and here I am.

Now the first thing to make clear is that I am not in the least bit annoyed, upset or cross about Meier_Elf_Fanatic's post. I do think though that the comments are somewhat misleading and at times down-right bizzare. I'm happy to believe that Meier's posts are well intentioned (though misinformed) and not an attempt at mischief.
Secondly, I'm not here to enter a discussion with you guys about the relative merits of the two approaches. As I said I frequent TMP. There are posts on there about the Table Top Sale that I am contributing to. If anyone wants to contribute in any way, drop by you will be more than welcome. The aim of this post is to give you the Organiser's viewpoint. Once I'm done I'm back to TMP and I'll leave you guys completely in peace. To be honest you don't need to reply as I'm not planning to check back.   

So here we go. Dealing with Meier's comments  in order.
a. The 30 minute time slot. Meier says  "30 minutes, that's it... no more". That's completely untrue. The starting period is 30 minutes (for £1). There is the option to extend to an hour (and even beyond). Extensions are completely at the discression of the booking in staff and depends on feedback from "front of house" about the queue of sellers waiting to get on. This was the briefing I gave to my helpers on the day and I know for certain this is what they did (and this is what happened last year as it was in the briefing I was given). We only ask people to vacate if we absolutely need to. They are given plenty of time to pack up. We do this to give everyone a 'fair crack of the whip' and to rotate the items available for sale. On the day lots of people extended to an hour some even longer. On the day I had at least one guy at front of house say 'I've just come off can I go back on' to which my reply was 'you are at the front of the queue on you go'. He came to see me later and have a laugh about the fact he had ended up on the table next to where he was originally. Of course I could have avoided typing all the above by just referring to Lowtardog's response who said he bought an hour last year and sold all his stuff after 45 minutes (but there you go I've typed it now).

No.1 Not a known face trader. Anyone is welcome to come and sell (provided its nothing illegal, countefeit etc). There is a huge difference between taking a trade stand at Vapnartak and selling on the Table Top Sale. Trade Stands have more room, more time, access to power for lights, displays, cash tills etc, ability to advertise their attendance, the possibity of putting on participation games in the vicinity (as Peter Pig & Gripping Beast did), recognised spots (again Peter Pig and Gripping Beast were in the spots they always are - this was great for me with limited time to shop). Lots of the Big name Traders want to come to Vapnartak. Believe me none of them will be quaking in their boots about the Table Top Sale. If Gripping Beast think they can make more money at the Table Top Sale they can certainly have two adjacent tables for an hour (one for all their stock and one for the SAGA participation game).

No.2 The Wolf Pack of buyers waiting to pounce. I love the image this conjures up and would certainly pay good money to see it. The thought of anyone positioning themselves between the 2 parallel tables of 48' of selling space constantly scanning all 32 tables for the latest bargain is improbable. In reality we have a one way system for buyers through the sale area. On the day lots of people went round at intervals looking at the new stuff as it arrived. At 'front of house' I saw the same people go round again and again. Most of them with more and more stuff as they picked up things they wanted. A few stopped for a chat to show off what they'd acquired.

No.3 Sellers cluttering corridors. As long as people don't cause an obstruction, set up their own 'illegal trade stand' I don't see a problem. If someone by doing a deal outside leaves a table in the sale area free for someone else I'm all for it. Of course with renting a table (for £1) you can set your stuff out and have access to lots more potential buyers. You mention an insecure B&B at York 2 years ago. I don't see why this is a problem with Table Top Sales - infact you are just drawing attention to another advantage. At the Table Top Sale we have one person every 3 foot watching the stuff (and since its their own and they are actively trying to sell it I'd like to think they would be a lot more vigilant). The seller is responsible for their own stuff, we take none. In the 2 years I have been doing this I am aware of no complaints about stuff going missing, if it did I'm not sure what they would expect the club to do about it.

No.4 Displaying your goods seriously eating into the 30 minutes. Really? If anyone is worried about this here is a good tip - a mate of mine was using a table the first time this year. Before hand he marked out his kitchen table into a 3 foot by 2 foot area. Then saw what he could fit in and practised the best way of displaying it. When I was on 'book in' last year I saw lots of imaginative displays. To my knowledge no-one has complained about set up or take down time eating into selling time. Of course with a table top sale the seller decides how they want their items displayed.

No.5 Generation of Cash for the Club. I've been told that when there was a B&B at York another club ran it for us for no charge as long as they kept everything they made i.e. the York Club received £0 from the B&B. This years Table Top Sale made the Club £168 which when we deduct the cost of the stationery I bought (we supply free of charge pens, paper and stickers for price labels which are placed on each table), the signage we got made this year (which we can use next year) and the cost of the drinks and chocolate that the club provides for the helpers we still made a nice little profit. You say you would need £3/4K of sales to cover the costs of staffing properly. £168 buys an awful lot of fizzy drink and mars bars! We are fortunate we do not need the income from this. We provide it as a service to gamers rather than to make money. My aim this year was to finish in the black - so I'm more than pleased. If we wanted to increase income we would put some proper trade stands in the space (and get a lot more back) we have a waiting list of traders wanting to get in. However, you mention money generated being spent with the traders. On my table top sale a guy who makes £100 in a 30 minute slot has £99 to spend at the trade stands as soon as he has finished selling. On your B&B he has £90 (assuming a 10% commission) once he gets the money. The difference increases the more someone makes. Our Chairman told me that a guy shook his hand on the way out as he has had sold a £300 painted army for a £1 stake (i'd like to think that he then spent some of that £299 at the show). Personally, I'm delighted for him. I saw elsewhere Lowtardog sold some painted armies for a £2 stake - good on him.

No.6 Staffing. We went the route of a table top sale as it uses fewer helpers than a B&B. As I say, I've done the two years of the TTS. I've never done a B&B and from the stories of the people who have you wouldn't get me doing it. So I admire your 20 years. However, I'm happy to give up a big proportion of my show to help someone sell their stuff. I'm not prepared to give up any time of my show to sell someone else's stuff while they get to see it. When I was thanking someone last night for their help they said 'no problem it was easy'.

I could go on. Such as the fact there is no paperwork for sellers (we have almost none) but I've got things to do.

Anyway just in case there is any doubt the York Club is delighted with its Table Top Sale. I'm 100% certain we will have one at Vapnartak 2013.

Feel free to pop onto TMP if you've any comments / suggestions.

Regards and Farewell

Aubrey