The Ottomans had the oil...

[gloriousbattle]

...just when oil was becoming important.  They were definitely a ramshackle power in this period, but still a power.

Could they have come to dominate the late 19th century, or at least regained great power status, if they had known what they had, and geared their resources up to using it?

[pierrebi]

Was the fall of the Ottoman Empire due to the increasing importance of oil in the world economy?

[Dr. The Viking]

I think their decline started when they stopped using fez hats.  Oil wouldn't have changed anything.

OK sorry I'll just get my coat now...  

[Remington]

We should try to keep this topic to the "then" rather than the "now"... before this gets locked. I'd love to read the discussions to this interesting topic... Looking forward to the experts.

As far as I recall from my sparse history lessons in Greek schools on topics other than Antiquity and Byzantium, the inner political turmoil (Young Turk movement) and being on the wrong side of the fence in the major conflicts were the reasons that broke the camel's back... But I'll be happily educated by anyone else.

[gloriousbattle]

We should try to keep this topic to the "then" rather than the "now"... before this gets locked. I'd love to read the discussions to this interesting topic... Looking forward to the experts.

As far as I recall from my sparse history lessons in Greek schools on topics other than Antiquity and Byzantium, the inner political turmoil (Young Turk movement) and being on the wrong side of the fence in the major conflicts were the reasons that broke the camel's back... But I'll be happily educated by anyone else.

Same here.  I don't know enough about the economics of it all to really comment intelligently.  For example, if it became a conflict between British ships and Turkish oil, what then?  I'm guessing that all of the other great powers (maybe not Russia) would have become the Sultan's instant friends, or would they have just tried to partition the empire immediately, and divided up the middle eastern oil reserves?

I also await the experts.

[Arthur]

I also await the experts.

Real experts will tell you there isn't much of a point in having amateur historians debate dubious "what if" scenarios with the benefit of hindsight. Frankly, this is the sort of discussion that is best left to TMP, where the local crowd will lap it up. 

[Captain Blood]

Amen to that.

[gloriousbattle]

Real experts will tell you there isn't much of a point in having amateur historians debate dubious "what if" scenarios with the benefit of hindsight. Frankly, this is the sort of discussion that is best left to TMP, where the local crowd will lap it up. 

I'm well aware that the title of this forum involves "Lead Adventures", but I would have thought that a little historical discussion would not be out of place.  As to dubious "what if" scenarios with the benefit of hindsight, well guy, you just pretty much defined this hobby.

[Arthur]

Gaming-related historical discussions, however far-fetched, aren't out of place here. Pseudo-historical topics with high flame-war potential are.

And you, boyo, come perilously close to behaving like a creature straight out of a Scandinavian folk tale, as others here have told you before.  

[Conquistador]

Real experts will tell you there isn't much of a point in having amateur historians debate dubious "what if" scenarios with the benefit of hindsight. Frankly, this is the sort of discussion that is best left to TMP, where the local crowd will lap it up. 

Wish i could debate that... but I can't.  It's not why I left TMP but it is a good reason to have considered it earlier...

Gracias,

Glenn

[Remington]

Easy there... When I said "experts" I meant people who might have read a book or two on the subject (which I haven't'), not purist historians. I meant the kind of experts that have been populating this forum for a while now and are always keen to share their knowledge and every now and again venture into areas a historian wouldn't even touch with a ten foot pole!

Now, if you want to talk about what historians will or will not debate and who is telling whom off, you are welcome to do so, but I believe this thread has a valid topic that is discussable among virtual buddies.

[Prof.Witchheimer]

Gaming-related historical discussions, however far-fetched, aren't out of place here. Pseudo-historical topics with high flame-war potential are.

Arthur, I think I know what you mean but it's nothing wrong with an occasional pseudo-historical discussion here on LAF as long as it doesn't become flammable. Gloriousbattle did start some odd threads on LAF, indeed, and one or two have been locked already. This one isn't that bad as long as we stay in the 19th century and "what if" scenarios.

[Galland]

I dont see the part where this discussion could be flameble? I also wonder why "What If" scenarious should not be valid amongst historians, I have had many, very interesting and fruitful, discussions with lectors at the university (studying art history, history, economical history) conserning various situations or places where the current institutions of a given area could have developed differently with different influences etc etc.
It is a way to understand a historical context, perhaps a bit like the very sucsessful colaborations between different institution on the university, say perhaps economical history and social anthropology? Interdisciplinarity many times leads to models where you will discuss situations that perhaps have a fictional input to yield results that can be studied.
An example is the situation (and miss use) of Germanys ME262 during WWII, this is one subject that is discussed at length at various military schools.

Besides, "What If" stuff is fun

[Dr Mathias]

Anyone here read the 'Leviathan' young adult steampunk/dieselpunk series? I picked the books up because I like the illustrator who did the interior art. The series is geared toward young adults but they're actually kind of interesting and have some gameable ideas. The Ottoman Empire plays a role in the second book as Germany and Britain vie for an alliance, and there is a pretty sweet sequence with a Tesla cannon. Not sure what happens in the third... I have it, but haven't read it. Anyway, it's a fantasy what-if including the Ottomans, so I thought I'd pipe up  

http://www.keiththompsonart.com/

http://scottwesterfeld.com/books/leviathan/

[gloriousbattle]

Anyone here read the 'Leviathan' young adult steampunk/dieselpunk series? I picked the books up because I like the illustrator who did the interior art. The series is geared toward young adults but they're actually kind of interesting and have some gameable ideas. The Ottoman Empire plays a role in the second book as Germany and Britain vie for an alliance, and there is a pretty sweet sequence with a Tesla cannon. Not sure what happens in the third... I have it, but haven't read it. Anyway, it's a fantasy what-if including the Ottomans, so I thought I'd pipe up  

http://www.keiththompsonart.com/

http://scottwesterfeld.com/books/leviathan/

I avoided that because I was afraid it was all illustration and no story, but I take it that it is pretty good?