Musket & Tomahawk yahoo group

[H.M.Stanley]

Now before we start, do you need to declare a vested interest in this Rich?  

Aren't you the guy who helped translate the book & did a pod-cast recently on Meebles extolling M&T's virtues?

I also saw a post where you took issue with someone who said M&T was "complicated". I understand where he is coming from.

Well, the book itself is hard going IMHO. I bought the rulebook after hearing the podcast when the three reviewers were saying how fabulous the game was. While i didn't "need" another set of rules for FIW (one of my favourite periods) i thought i'd give them a go as the sub-plots in particular sounded interesting. Also one of the guys i know plays them [although he concedes that TVG shades it for him]

I have just laboured through Movement, Shooting and Melee. It is turgid stuff and hardly bounces off the page. I must have spent 10 minutes reading Spotting [One page] and trying to work out what it is attempting to do

I'm sure it will all make sense once i've played a couple of times. First game on Thurs which i'm looking forward to

I'm keeping an open mind about M&T and will give them a fair crack as i enjoy skirmish games, particularly for this period which i think it lends itself to.

This post is not meant to be a test of your Diplomatic skills nor an attack on you/M&T. Just my assessment of the rules at first read and, as yet, unplayed.

I've also registered on the M&T Forum but thought i'd post here as this is neutral ground  

James

[Rich J]

Vested interest - not at all. I did NOT translate the rules (in fact no one did the French author rewrote them in English and Mike Hobbs help to edit the English). Yes I did just appear on the M&M podcast talking about the rules (I am usually a guest on there and have also done lots of casts with Neil about various rule sets over the past year or two) - you mean you are not an avid listener, shame on you

AND yes I really like the rules, that is not a vested interest, I should in fact be saying how better my Flying Lead rules are to cover the period so buy those instead and make your own stats up - or maybe write my own FWI suppplement - but I'm not because I don't do that AND I couldn't make them feel better than M&T for FIW - SO are you happy:
NO VESTED INTEREST TO DECLARE
The reason I don't use nick names on forums is so people know who it is 

Now I must declare I have the diplomatic skills of a hungry lion in a baboon enclosure so one shouldn't really test it   

Like I said in review on the Podcast after years of reviewing rules I found the core mechanics very simple indeed, nothing new, move, take inches off for terrain, roll to hit, roll to kill, melee roll to hit then roll to save etc etc. Even the reaction test for morale is straight forward. Although, mainly my comment was aimed at the fact the poster had whinged how complicated they were and then said they play Sharpe Practice. Now to me (I play SP a lot) this was daft, unless it was a veiled attempt to suggest SP was a lot better.

The bits in the rules that make them different to me, and why I like them so much, is the way the cards, objectives and side plots work. To me this gives them a lot more replayability and feel than a lot of other sets (like TVG that you have mentioned) outside of maybe the 2HW sets called Long Rifle and Muskets and Mowhawks.

To be honest though if you spent 10 minutes trying to figure out the spotting test maybe the rules are too complicated for you. I read it and thought it was too simple. A distance column things are seen at in various cover which moves to the columns right or left depending on the modifier - leaving a distance that units are spotted at!

Maybe you'll like it on Thursday, I hope so, if not then there are other sets out there, and it makes little difference to me which one you use unless of course you go out and get Flying Lead and then we can cobble some FIW rules together.

Rich

[H.M.Stanley]

I should have said "edit" not "translate", and i probably mixed you up with Mike

"The bits in the rules that make them different to me, and why I like them so much, is the way the cards, objectives and side plots work. To me this gives them a lot more replayability"

Which caught my attention and the reason i bought the the RB

"To be honest though if you spent 10 minutes trying to figure out the spotting test maybe the rules are too complicated for you."

Oh, you're probably right. The fact that it doesn't translate well is neither here nor there. That or i exagerrated to make a point, or was tired, or my son was watching the TV, or i'm a bit slow perhaps. Unlike you, clearly.

"Maybe you'll like it on Thursday, I hope so, if not then there are other sets out there, and it makes little difference to me which one you use ..."

I hope so too. As i said, i'll keep an open mind. But i won't lose sleep if i don't. I'll just sell them on

"Now I must declare I have the diplomatic skills of a hungry lion in a baboon enclosure so one shouldn't really test it"

I'll try to keep that i mind but can't promise ..

James Woodward [Oswald on M&T Forum]

[Rich J]

Probably is the wrong word - you definitely mixed me up with Mike (must be the welsh voice and Jones family name). Test away either here or on the Saga forum I don't mind, so long as no one expects me to be diplomatic then its fine

I spend too long in Aussie land to be diplomatic

[H.M.Stanley]

Well, as you asked ..

British Light Infantry - should they be, erm, Light Troops rather than just Scouts?

[Rich J]

It's important to look at the stats and not just the special rules/traits. If you compare the Light Infantry to the regular infantry they already differ a lot. They are irregular, they have more movement and a better base shooting stat (to allow them to shoot effectively without being in a line like benefits the regular troops with 'firing line'.

This makes them act more like light troops, the irregular cards split their 4 actions up to 4 cards over the turn (so they can flit about) rather than the 2 cards with 2 actions of the regulars. The extra 1" move increases the command radius by 2" in effect meaning they can operate more spread out (they can be up to the movement rate away from their unit leader figure). So already they act very different from the regulars before you add any of the options such as elite or sharp shooter. THEN they get the scout trait which means they movement over difficult ground is done at normal rate and they manage small linear obstacles without losing 2" of move, all which means again they act like lights   

Hope that helps

[H.M.Stanley]

That is interesting and helpful - thank you.

I see that there are also slight differences with the CFdM and Coureurs des Bois. Very subtle although i confess that how that plays in practice eludes me for the moment. I'll have to dig some figures out and run through the rules before my game Thurs.

BTW - i have Foundry & Crusader Regulars. Both mix in very well with my GM Rangers, Huron, Settlers etc

James

[H.M.Stanley]

Q please ..

It says in the book that you can go back to a unit to complete its 2nd Action i.e. British Regulars. [Action Sequence p12] How do you keep track of having an outstanding action?

[Rich J]

To be honest this has only happened a few times in many many games. It's only regulars and provincials that will ever get the chance. Useful when you need to move a unit out the way to allow one behind to move and shoot leaving the first one to then shoot if the enemy is driven out of cover. Most of the time you'll be doing two actions, but it is useful sometimes. We either remember or in big games mark them with a spare officer figure.

Please ask anything before your game.

[H.M.Stanley]

Ok thanks

So what triggers that 2nd [reserved] action? Can you just call it in at any time?

Or do you need to wait until another Regulars etc card? If so, would that give you 3 x Actions (i suspect not)?

Cheers, James

PS  All this talk of FIW, I've now dug out my pack of 8 x Foundry British Grenadiers to paint  after having a short break from the period

[Rich J]

Not really a reserved action really which is why it is of limited use. If you don't use it that card you lose it. Remember unlike other card activation systems a regular card will trigger 2 actions for ALL your regular units.
However, you can put units on what is called vigilance which allows you to shoot after an opposing unit has completed an action. Handy for when you can't spot a unit but know its there. You wait til they shoot (usually allowing you to now spot them) and then return fire in their turn. In effect it is overwatch.

[H.M.Stanley]

So, having a solo practice 200pt game running through the rules with these

BRITISH
Officer/Trait [Ranger]
6 x Regulars
2 x 6 Rangers

FRENCH
Officer/Light Infantry
8 x CdB
6 x Huron
7 x Huron

I've divided forces into "thirds" to accomodate Reserves. I know that the rules state that you must take 10 figures as the same troop type as the Office but assume that this is relaxed for smaller games? The example AWI force [p44] suggests that thats the case

Right, i'm going in ...

[Rich J]

Hold your horses.   

The officer rule is right but it is 'troop types' not types of troop as it were. So you need 10 regulars not 10 of the same actual troop. But if you both agree who cares.

Looking at your lists the Brits is wrong in a couple of ways. Your regulars need to be at least 8 figs (8-12) and most people take 10 to tick the officer box. Which means the rangers need tweaking. Maybe take 8 rangers in one unit and buy more regulars.

The French technically need more marines to get the officer. Cut down your Huron which can be 4-6 in a unit and give them the auxiliary trait so the benefit from your officer maybe.

Nothing to stop you saying 250 points.

[H.M.Stanley]

Right you are. Back to Plan A as it were ..

BRITISH
Officer/Trait
10 x Regulars
9 x Rangers with "Marksmen"

FRENCH
Officer/Light Infantry
10 x CdB
2 x 5 Huron

Objectives - The French would be a Mixed Force while the Regulars could never get Slaughter [with the D6+1] as i understand it

It may be hard on the British if they have to have Reserves but them's the Breaks**. I could do an all Ranger force but i'm wanting to try out the different troop types. Same with the Indians - i'd like to see how they get on by not being able to use the French Officer for Moral tests etc

Thanks,

James

** just realised that if i do roll Defence/Protection and one of the British Units are in Reserve then you get 10%, here 20 pts of Civilians. So i get to start with another 10 of my Galloping Major Settlers 

[Rich J]

On the force list page the unit has a size stat. Rangers are between 6-8 men. So you can't take 9.

Indians without an officer don't like being shot at, keep them in area cover to get their +1 on reactions

The regulars will often end up with civilians. Don't forget to put the civilian cards in the deck.

Have fun.