Why Carnevale is doomed to failure

[mysteriousbill]

The miniatures are great, the setting interesting, don't really know how the rules are, but the terrain is impossible. Venice is a unique city and it would cost a small fortune to do a decent job representing it.

Any western game, you can get by with a dozen buildings to make a small town, re-aranging then as needed. Plus fights out in the country make perfect sense (the ambush at a hideout or the robbing of the stage).

Post-apocalypse and Necromunda terrain is easy to make. Some foamboard, assorted trash and bits from the bit box and you have a ruined city. Once I put together a complex with various pieces of PVS pipe that a friend had in his workshop. The smaller and stranger shaped the better. A bit of superglue, some plastic-card, grey and other dark color paints, and a dark gray cloth to put the bits on and I had a nice battlefield for under $20. Add some pieces of terrain from the other players and you had lots of different battlefields.

And Pulp and WWWII can be easily set in rural areas or small towns (a jungle, the desert, the North Woods etc.)

Even with zombie games you can get by with a couple hundred dollars worth of Plasticville, if you are a careful shopper on Ebay.

And lots of times you can use the same piece for different periods. That fantasy castle you paid a fortune for, can be the lair of a wizard, den of a vampire in the 1800s, the home of a Mad Scientist in the 20's, or your basic Nazi stronghold. Those generic looking burned out buildings can be post-apocalypse, Mordheim, WWII, whatever (OK some are specific to a time period or place, but you can buy or make others that are not). In the Middle East, park a Toyota pickup in front of the house and put a Satellite Dish on the roof it can be modern, put a camel out front and it can be Victorian.

But Venice!!! my god the work required for terrain would be enormous. Which limits the number of people who will play it.

We all admire the guy who builds himself a chunk of Stalingrad to game on, but they are few and far between. And most WWII miniature lines don't require a city setting.

[Dr.Falkenhayn]

ive seen a few Carnevale Games with Worldworks Games Card Terrain (the Malifaux Stuff) not that bad me thinks 

[Varangian]

ive seen a few Carnevale Games with Worldworks Games Card Terrain (the Malifaux Stuff) not that bad me thinks 

The Terra Clips stuff??

That's a hell of a thought. I LOVE Malifaux, Carnevale looks like a ton of fun too...

If nothing else it's another source for some Deep Ones....

[Melnibonean]

I don't know about elsewhere in the world but a box of Malifaux terrain costs anout $75 here in Australia. To me that's a huge amount to pay for terrain.

But as for Carnevale... I'd guess most players would just use whatever terrain they have on hand and work from there. A few tall buildings and a canal or two... I guess.

[Galland]

I must admit that I first thought that I accidently had opend a forum for computergames, some sort of MMO discussion perhaps. I dont see any reason to start out a constructive discussion with claiming utter failure for any game really.

I can only suggest that you make terrain that suits the setting of the game, and that can be as generic as you like, not to mention that any terrain that you make for the Carnevale setting could be used in any other game, as you allready have mentioned that other game systems terrain can be used for.

I will also point you in the direction of Faberīs fantastic Mordheim table, wich can be found http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=28462.0, a project that easily could be used for a Carnevale setting, not to mention that the cost for his work so far, in money that is, must be rather low, considering the fact that its mainly XPS and perhaps some Depron, all carved, cut and scribbled. The paint it self can be kept at a rather low cost, if you use artists shop or DIY shop acrylics. For more ideas, take a look at Masonīs project, also for Mordheim, and kept to a reasonable cost (considering the scale of the project, and this can be found here http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=30667.0.

I hope you find this a bit helpful, so that you might enjoy your game of Carnevale!

[Steve F]

Venice does have squares and streets, and building interiors.  It just has canals as well.  And the figures and rules can surely be used for settings anywhere in Italy or in large parts of Europe beyond.

Creating and selling any new game is a risk, but it would be nice if we could applaud and support those who try something a little bit different, rather than running them down.

Edit: come to think of it, how hard is a canal to simulate for a casual game, anyway?  Lay down a large sheet of blue paper, and place your buildings either side of it.  Done.  Or, for open space, lay paved boards or printed card sheets either side of it.  Simple.  Of course, you could make something more elaborate, but you don't have to.

[Cherno]

If someone doesn't need a fullblown custom terrain table to enjoy the game, there's also the option of printing a game mat or several tiles with printed-on scenery, which would give it something like a boardgame feeling.

[Mason]

Another option is to use your existing medieval buildings and make 'islands' out of foam like Faber has done.
It would not be too difficult to put together a board that would give a decent representation of Venice.

Just make a few islands and some bridges and place them over a blue or green cloth, put your buildings on top and you have a modular board that could look different every time that you play.

[commissarmoody]

what is this game? I have never heard of it or seen any adds.

[Penchour]

what is this game? I have never heard of it or seen any adds.

I guess this is the point : so far, Carnivale is a bit of a 'confidential' stuff. I've seen the mini (as gorgeous than expensive), enjoyed the setting (both fluff and axtravagant sceneries), but I don't know anything about the rules ...
Now, to go back to the terrain dilemna, I could say EotD shares the same problem as late Victorian London doesn't come cheap to create (and outside commonwealth, I'm not sure the setting sounds so 'familiar'). Now the difference between both games are the number of minis available, the actual rules/factions and their perspectives in terms of development.
Don't misread me : I think Carnivale is a very attractive setting and the miniatures are just brillant, but as an expensive stand alone game, I can only see clouded future ...

[Cherno]

On a side note, I think the 19th-century terrain for Steampunk/VSF has a lot of catching up to do compared to the abundance of modern stuff, it's rather strange that not more terrain is available while Steampunk/VSF has been growing in popularity in the last years.

[robh]

In Carnevale the games do not take place inside buildings, so they really only need to be backdrop scenery. My thought was to get some Sarrisa Precision tall frontages custom made featuring Venetian/Italian style embossed plasterwork. Then use half depth sides from MDF or Plywood arranged around the table edges with some "back to back" for mid table areas. I did start working on some designs but lack of support/interest locally has pushed this project into the background for me.

The key to a Carnevale table will be canals, and the bridges. Canals are not too difficult, although they really do need some depth below the streets/wharves so that Gondolas and small boats can be useful scenery. Bridges are more problematic as they really do set the scene and are the most uniquely identifiable Venetian structures.

The game really deserves to be more well known, the setting is unique, the rules play really well and the model concepts are stunning.

[TheShadow]

just a quick response, but look at this years Salute Carnevale table - they only had 1 or 2 watery sections, that worked pretty well....

[DeafNala]

Like most of the MANY miniature games that brighten our addictive avocation, Carnevale will probably not achieve the level of "success" that G.W. enjoys, but I can see it having a following. Being pragmatic creatures, the gamers will rise to the problem of setting, although  perhaps not in a wonderfully artistic manner.
AND, my observation is there are more painters out there than gamers; the minis should do quite well with this community.

[Mashie]

Love the look. I think they could do themselves a lot of good by producing a line of cheap paper buildings and bridges. That would allow people to get started with some good looking terrain. If players wanted, they then could go on to make more solid, 3d terrain.