Why Carnevale is doomed to failure

[matakishi]

I agree with Galland. The topic title is mean spirited and ill informed. Who are we, any of us, to determine what the Carnivale people consider 'success' or 'failure'. Surely getting their figures, rules and setting out to an appreciative audience is already some degree of success? Whether they ultimately reach whatever goals they've set themselves remains to be seen.
Condemning them because a display standard table is beyond the reach of many people's abilities is just silly. 40k, Warhammer Fantasy and Flames of War have all achieved financial success and popularity and most of the games played with those systems are with unpainted miniatures on flat tables. Carnivale is never going to appeal to those sorts of players, nor to competition games of which there are many. And, I dare say, it was never intended to.

[Mason]

^^^
Well said, that man!

[Galland]

^^^
Well said, that man!

One more to the praise of Herr Matakishis well stated oppinions.

Actually, I got to add something, and that would be the fact that I personally are currently working a bit on my own set of rules that perhaps will also yield a few miniatures to go with it. I cant say that I neither aim or hope for any kind of financial sucess, nor do I try to reach everyone with this. My goals are to share some thoughts about narrative and storydriven wargaming, with detailed rules bordering on RP games, this naturally are not to everyones taste, but its what I like, and I know I share that vision with a few others. I hope, that perhaps if I am very lucky, I will break even. However, that is not important for me in the end, I will be very happy to see my stuff printed and perhaps used by other gamers. So, if that happends, my game will be a huge sucess, for me that is.

[Van-Helsing]

Well said from Galland and Matakishi! - it really wasn't very pleasant. There are "Negs" on every Forum - I've had rows with some (generally only when they start attacking an individual - as it gets my back right up).

Venetian Gothic is a term given to an architectural style combining use of the Gothic lancet arch with Byzantine and Moorish architecture influences. The style originated in 14th century Venice with the confluence of Byzantine styles from Constantinople, Arab influences from Moorish Spain and early Gothic forms from mainland Italy. Chief examples of the style are the Doge's Palace and the Ca' d'Oro in Venice.

HOWEVER their are plenty of Buildings in Venice that have a much simpler design - and follow a more "Italianesque" template in look and feel - and not that hard to do really.

As for streets and canals - Combining the Worldworks Himmelveil Sewers, Canals, and Streets would create a lovely "quasi" Venitian look in my humble opinion - and would be an excellent place to start (as was pointed out the interiors of buildings aren't used).

By digging around you can find Mediterranean resin Buildings, and there are plenty of jetty's, wharfs, and sewer resin terrain out their for the canals if you want to chuck loads of money at it (or simply get inspiration).

With the introduction of "Instant Mold" you only really need to make one window/arch/doorway anyway - then cast as many as you want, making it easy to "dress" any building you buy/scratch build take on the appearance of the more exotic Gothic forms of the grander structures of Venice!

So - if you want to try Carnevale (as I plan to at some point) don't sweat the terrain - there are plenty of options to keep you going.

[Van-Helsing]

I personally are currently working a bit on my own set of rules that perhaps will also yield a few miniatures to go with it.

Intriguing . . . .

[mysteriousbill]

I apologise for being so negative. I withdraw the word "doomed" and substitute may have problems achieving a large following because of the terrain demands. Any system that is set in an urban setting will have the same problems. Again great miniatures (I know I have to get some of the Deep Ones).

[inkwell]

 Very little will discourage a dedicated gamer

[aggro84]

Just thought I'd throw in my two cents.

I loved the Carnevale setting. I loved it so much, I really wished I had thought of it myself.
I also really liked the rules, although they could use an update. There's some really cool ideas in there.

I don't think needing a lot of special Venetian style terrain kills the game at all. There's plenty of terrain alternatives out there.

What killed the game for me was the miniature pricing here in the States.
But then again I'm a cheap bastard. 

[Van-Helsing]

Just thought I'd throw in my two cents. That killed the game for me was the miniature pricing here in the States.
But then again I'm a cheap bastard. 

Thats whats stopped me too (both reasons)

[Varangian]

I don't know about elsewhere in the world but a box of Malifaux terrain costs anout $75 here in Australia. To me that's a huge amount to pay for terrain.

But as for Carnevale... I'd guess most players would just use whatever terrain they have on hand and work from there. A few tall buildings and a canal or two... I guess.

In the states it is $49 for a box of card and $15 for a box of clips. I have two boxes of each type of card, and three boxes of clips.

I have gotten a LOT of use out of them. Their ability to build all sorts of interesting terrain is pretty damned impressive. The second release (more classic dungeon-fantasy) looks great too. I'm certainly not going to give anyone a hard time for raising an eyebrow to price, I don't think it's necessarily a show stopper.

-------------------------

I'm pretty happy to hear so many good things about the game. I don't know that I need, or even want, another game....still though.... I have the terrain....

Darn you all.

[Commander Vyper]

My take,

If you look at say Osgiliath tables from LOTR, you'll see natural parallels in architecture/styles etc, and they are often just swirly yog pots, dowel and foamcore, with a coat of coving paste/filler.

You can go as simple or as detailed as you talent/skill/budget or time allows.

Assassin's Creed 2 will have some great reference pics for 16thc. Venice. Naturally pics of the lagoon island itself are perfect resource, just don't try to build a billion tonn ocean liner in one of the canals, that would just be plain old stupid?

Either way as has been said, just play the game, have fun.

[MODman]

just got to this post by a message from a member, i have posted a link here to some river wall sections that i make so if they would suit just send me a mail and i am sure we can sort something out.

i list them as 15-20mm scale but they would easily do for 28mm

http://modbuildings.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/15-20mm-river-sections.html

[CyberAlien312]

I think it would actually be a fun project to make a Venice terrain board. I mean, I won't do it because I don't have enough time, but if I had, I might have made such a terrain board. I think there are loads of people who actually like making terrain boards, no matter how much time it takes. So I don't think it's doomed to fail - I just think the game is aimed at people who like making terrain, or, of course, at people who don't mind quick and easily made terrain. A few quick cardboard buildings could be enough to make a great game.

[Col. Aubrey Bagshot]

Any of the boards mentioned above would also be perfect for Empire of the Dead....
So perhaps a generic dark city board, Venice, London or wherever, would actually play for many games....

As Vyper mentioned above, an Osciliath board is far more versatile than you may think... I re,ever playing a fantastic WW2 Stanligrad game on just such a board.... My German infantry even found an Orc hiding inside a small tower.... Which was nice.....

[Commander Vyper]

128 euros unbuilt, there's a table for you!!!