The problem with pikes

[max]

I've recently made some Burgundian pikes, and have run into a problem concerning rules; i use LOTR strategy battle game for skirmish actions and have found that allowing pikes to support doesn't seem 'right'. I tried to think of a way for pikes to have a 'free attack' at 2 inches, or something like that, but i have found nothing i really like. Does anyone have any suggestions?
Also, if anyone knows any good rules for the late medieval period let me know too. I'm always on the search for game rules (preferably free  )

[fastolfrus]

Pikes don't really work well for skirmishing, they really are a unit weapon.
If you find a local reenactment group you'll find just how unwieldy they are if split off to work alone. But as a close ranked unit, intimidating.

Perhaps you could represent that by making opponents take a morale check to face formed pikes? Formed pikes should probably get to strike first- regardless of who initiates combat, morale failure would give a suitable minus in combat.
Individual pikes probably get no real bonus although they could get the long reach in attack that youlve already considered, but if the opponent gets past the pike and "up close and personal" the pike would be a disadvantage.

[commissarmoody]

I like Mr Fastolfrus ideas.
Formed up and to the front is a scary wall of sharp pointy things. Up close its a guy holding a long unwelding pole.

[janner]

Of course a lot depends on which system the pikeman is using and how experienced they are.

The traditional pose you see adopted by reenactors is where the pike is held towards one end and was often used in Germany. The Swiss preferred to hold the pike closer to the centre point, which made fencing easier. Unfortunately I not aware of the survival of 15th century pike treaties, but narratives do talk of the differing techniques used in close combat. There appears to have been a lot more room for individual prowess and skill than one might expect.

Regards,

[fastolfrus]

Holding the pike close to the end is probably down to surviving 17th century drill books being readily available, and the dominant position of the Sealed Knot society as probably the largest/oldest reenactment group in Europe - that's the way they do it so everyone else follows suit.

[Arlequín]

Individual prowess not excepting, the pike is an unwieldy weapon to use in single combat. There's also some debate on just how long a medieval pike was, certainly the 17-18' ones are likely to have been a later type than earlier. Even if 12' was the typical length at this time, it's still relatively unwieldy for single combat. 

Medieval soldiers were quite adaptable however and a pikeman required to perform a task outside of his typical role, would likely choose the tools for the job at hand. There were usually surplus weapons within the train of most forces, otherwise he might just venture forth with sword and shield/buckler. Certainly it's hard to imagine pikemen storming the walls in a siege.

Pikes could be cut down to more manageable lengths to make spears (which is not only a stabbing weapon, but also a tripping/striking weapon when used properly... think a staff with a point), or men might be issued with cavalry spears, or halberds etc from stock. In English armies, even archers did duty with bills when on guard, despite not ordinarily having them.

[max]

Thanks for all the ideas, i'll try them out.

[janner]

I would argue that close combat and skirmishing rarely meant single combat - at least not if they could help it. I would suggest that outside of the chivalric displays beloved of the chansons de geste, professional warriors would try to avoid being separated from their colleagues at all costs. You need someone watching your back and flanks, and an experienced small group of determined men working in concert can wreak havoc on a battlefield in any epoc  

Of course it is difficult to say when a long spear becomes a pike and visa versa, but a pikeman or two supported by a couple of pole armed mates and some archers working as a team would be a real pain to deal with.

I agree that the professional warrior should not be viewed as fixed to a single weapon though. Research has long shown us that some HYW English archers progressed to be men-at-arms. Indeed I suspect that the title they were mustered under largely reflected their pay scale as opposed to a fixed role during a campaign. So a man paid as a mounted archer might actually be a hobilar/prickler etc. anyway, I degress  

[max]

Usually in my games the men are in groups. The new warband system might help here for LOTR, but perhaps some modifications/new rules are needed here. The mordheim system has some advantages, some testing is required.

[Arlequín]

I'll echo all what Janner said... that's my belief too. So yes, you might have to work out some advantages for fighting as a group... or alternatively some for not fighting in one.

 

[Funghy-Fipps]

During the ECW pikemen were used in sieges, but they shortened their pikes (essentially making them spears) so they they were more manageable for one-to-one close quarters fighting. 

Rules-wise how about a model that charges a pike-carrying opponent (who isn't already engaged) get a minus one to his first combat result (as I recall in LOTR both players roll 1d6)?

[max]

I could do that. I also thought that pike models get a free strike if a non pike armed model moves into contact. Perhaps a bit powerful, but it would discourage enemeis from charging in frontally. Of course, if attacked on the flank the pike armed soldier gets a minus.

[Dawnbringer]

The thing is, in the LotR SBG, there are no flanks. My thoughts are that you could treat it as a "throwing weapon" with a range of 2 inches (either S 2 or 3 depending on how the playtesting goes. Also allow it to be used against people in combat with no chance of hitting your own guy, but models carrying one suffer a -1 to the fight roll like a 2-handed weapon. This way models in close combat will be at a disadvantage, but their opponents will have to survive the 2 attacks from the guys behind him.

[max]

My thoughts are that you could treat it as a "throwing weapon" with a range of 2 inches (either S 2 or 3 depending on how the playtesting goes.

  Thanks Dawnbringer, that's a great idea! I will try that for sure!

Also allow it to be used against people in combat with no chance of hitting your own guy, but models carrying one suffer a -1 to the fight roll like a 2-handed weapon. This way models in close combat will be at a disadvantage, but their opponents will have to survive the 2 attacks from the guys behind him.

Makes pikemen stay in a group, get a minus but with up to 3 attacks they have quite a chance of winning.
I was thinking of more complicated ideas, sometimes simple ideas are better.

[Dawnbringer]

Makes pikemen stay in a group, get a minus but with up to 3 attacks they have quite a chance of winning.

I wasn't thinking to let them keep the ability to support, just replace that with "throwing weapon" ability. If your pike block is charged, in the shoot phase the two guys behind would get to make their throwing weapon attacks, possibly killing the attacker before the fight phase, which balances the fact that in the fight phase the one man with the pike will be at a disadvantage. If they get to charge then they'd get to make 3 attacks before the fight phase, 2 from the "support" guys, and one from the front guy as he charges.

There are 3 things I'm currently trying to decide. 1) Whether to go and treat spears as the same thing, abit with a 1 inch range. 2) should the attacks be at the users strength or subtract one. 3) If lances should also be treated similiar.