War of the Roses C. 1515

[Stuart]

Here's a Tudor treat for you.

Discuss!

An interesting concept and there are a wealth of Yorkist rebel contenders such as this chap, Edward Stafford.

This and more ramblings at my latest blog update;

www.stuartsworkbench.blogspot.com

All the best

Stuart

[Atheling]

Fantastic looking stuff Stuart  .

I'm really pleased to see this army just grow and grow. I've also been very impressed with the dedication to detail in both the execution of the painting and the level of research.

Inspiring (and I'm going to need such inspiration with my Fornovo project as evidence for some of the participants in terms of heraldry!  )

Darrell.

[CyberAlien312]

I just love the way you paint your figures. So much detail... 

[Elladan]

Hi,

very inspiring and well done. I just bookmarked your block for regular visits.

Thank you for sharing.


Elmar

http://www.elladan.de/

[OSHIROmodels]

Regarding your blog discussion on the increased use of arquebusiers in the army. It's interesting to note that the easier to use gun was superseding the bow even though the former was less effective over all. And it's all down to money  nothing changed there then 

You're right that it wouldn't have be cosy standing in front of the combined arms, especially when there's a buch of rowdy Englishmen behind it 

Great painting of course and I like the fact you've converted each figure 

cheers

James

[Captain Blood]

Great stuff Stuart.

[ponda]

Great!

[Arlequín]

Great looking figures!

Okay... Yorkist Pretenders 1515.

Top of the heap for me would be Richard de La Pole 'The White Rose'. Son of John, Earl of Suffolk, 'The Trimmer' and Elizabeth of York (daughter of the Duke of York). In 1513 he was to lead a French funded expedition, which included 12,000 Landsknechts and which were at the Port of St. Malo, awaiting ships, when the French concluded a peace treaty with England and it was called off. He fought for the French for the following 12 years and was once more to lead a further expedition in 1523, along with John Stewart, Duke of Albany, which was again cancelled. He was killed at Pavia in 1525.

His elder and equally as ill-fated brothers were; John, Earl of Lincoln (d. 1487, Stoke Field), Edmund, Earl of Suffolk (Ex. 1513) and William (d. c.1539 after spending 37 years as a prisoner in the Tower of London).   

[Phil Robinson]

Excellent stuff Stuart, I have been following your blog for a while now. 

Really admire your dedication to the project, wish I could do the same to mine .

[Stuart]

Thanks chaps

There are a fair few later potential rebels that feature in the 1513 campaign so by the army is done it would be quite easy to field two armies or indeed add to them.

De la Pole was perhaps Henry's most serious threat and an adept commander at that, he saw a fair bit of action in the service of Louis XII & Francis I both in the Italian campaigns and against the English during their 1522/3 campaign. His planned 'invasion'of 1513/14 really intrigues me and it's something I might look into doing at some point.

Rather annoyingly I've found it really difficult to try and find his standard. I know his coat of arms and could take a guess but I'd rather not. There are descriptions of it featuring a lion on a blue and red (or rather murray and blue) field so it sounds a little bit like one of Edward IV's standards which I suppose would make sense.

Any ideas?

[dodge]

Truly superb painting and attention to detail 

[Arlequín]

Rather annoyingly I've found it really difficult to try and find his standard. I know his coat of arms and could take a guess but I'd rather not. There are descriptions of it featuring a lion on a blue and red (or rather murray and blue) field so it sounds a little bit like one of Edward IV's standards which I suppose would make sense.

Any ideas?

Nothing concrete I'm afraid. Edward IV and Richard III, both apparently changed their liveries to Red and Blue (as opposed to Murray and Blue) when they became kings, but this may be just a misinterpretation of the colours used anyway. It's possible that the same colours might be used to stress his claim.

He was known as the 'White Rose', so it is possible that he used this obvious Yorkist symbol as a badge. Richard III was known as 'The Hog', due to his boar badge. Pole's brother John, according to Fox-Davies' Heraldic Badges used; "Lyon of gold the Kewe
forched" [MS. 2nd M. 16, Coll. Arms] in 1475.

As he was largely in French service during his exile, he is likely to have just used a banner with his coat-of-arms, though no doubt his servants would probably have worn his livery, his command (depending on who you read), was variously the Black Band Lansknechts, the whole of the French Infantry, or a unit of French or mercenary infantry, who would have their own standard(s).  

With that in mind, his livery for a imagi-campaign to gain his crown, can be anything you like... there were no hard and fast rules.

[Stuart]

Thanks again Arlequin

All thoughts appreciated on this;

Here's a rough army list I've cobbled together for a De La Pole invasion;

Troop type   Point cost   Allowance
      
C-in-C /  Ln (S) @ 35AP or Pk (S) @ 25AP  /  1   
Sub-General / Ln (S) @ 35AP or Pk (S) @ 25AP   / 1-2
Ordonnance Gendarmes / Ln (S) @ 15AP / 0-4
Ordonnance Archers / Ln (F) @ 11AP   / 0-4
Armoured Gentry / Pk (S) @ 5AP / 0-4
French foot / Pk (I) @ 3AP or Sk (O) @ 3AP / 0-12
Stradiots or Border Horse / LH (O) @ 5AP / 1-4
Scots Lowland pikemen / Pk (O) @ 4AP / 6-12
Rebel English longbowmen /Bw (S) @ 7AP / 0-12
Rebel English billmen / Bd (O) @ 7AP / 0-12
Landsknecht pikemen / Pk (O) @ 4AP / 12-18
Landsknecht arquebusiers / Sk (O) @ 3AP or Sh (I) @ 4 AP /1 per 4 Pk
Field Guns / Art (O) @ 20AP / 0-2
Organ guns / Art (I) @ 5AP / 0-2


As you can see it's a largely infantry army with aspects of French, English and Scots listings. The only aspects that I am unsure about are;

1. Stradiots and Gendarmes; none came in the ships which were sent as assistance for the Flodden campaign and / or the gendarmes fought on foot (and ended up worse off for it) in which case I have represented other 'cavalry' elements as armoured gentry - perhaps with the option of having them armed with swords and poleaxes?

Also, would stradiots have been a more effective decision over the local border horse?

2. Artillery; light pieces could have been easy enough to send over but my reasoning for only a token amount of artillery is that almost all of it was captured after Flodden.

As for the Landsknechts, definitely the black band. I know that Richard led them against the English at Therouanne in 1513 and in preparation for the invasion in 1514 along with a Robert de la Marck.

Re; Liveries. There is mention of De la Pole's musicians being liveried in Blue and Grey when he relocated to Metz in 1514, i'm not sure if these are Yorkist or French derived though his heraldry does feature blue and white. Definitely some white rose devices wouldn't go amiss or 'blancherosee' as he was known in France.

[Arlequín]

Liveries for household servants etc., are unlikely to be in different colours to troops, just probably a better quality of material. So blue and grey/white would serve for all. I can't recall for sure offhand, but his grandfather also used blue and white iirc, along with a gold lion, so there's a set of traditional themes in use within a family, something else which was common (but by no means universal).

My personal views of foreign troops employed would preclude the use of state troops in an invasion. There is the obvious 'foreign invasion' aspect, which would be a propaganda gift to his opponents to consider. Margaret of Anjou's army of 1461 was described as 'Scottish', despite being largely Northerners and Borderers, which mobilised support behind Edward IV in the South.

As I understand it, money might be advanced and permission given to recruit an army, even individual captains given leave to join the force being raised, but an actual foreign army, in this case a French one, wouldn't happen. Individual mercenaries and the numerous companies of mercenaries could be signed up, that was standard, as was the gathering of exiled Englishmen to join the force.

Henry Tudor's army was supposedly made up of 1,500 or so ex-regular French Infantry (Swiss-trained apparently... or not, I'm dubious personally) from the Pont de l'Arche base, which was being disbanded. A further 1,000 were Scots sent to fight for the French and who were supposedly returning home after their service was done. There were also supposedly 500 English exiles. The remaining 1,000 or so were ex-convicts and debtors if you believe Commines, but more likely the numerous aventuriers and other assorted mercenaries knocking around after the end of the most recent bout of war in the Low Countries.

I would expect that a force cobbled together for Suffolk, to be quite similar. Other than individual captains, there would be little involvement by the French nobility and gentry. Suffolk's force would be largely infantry, as you suggest and he would be expected to gain additional support from English gentry and nobles on landing, along with their troops. I'm not aware that the Stradiots were used outside of Italy at this date, so their inclusion may (or may not) be suspect.   

Presuming Suffolk landed in the North, then I'd certainly say that he would rely heavily on Scottish/Borderer support. I would see Suffolk's force as forming a division within a largely Scottish army, with additional disaffected English gentry and their retinues padding this out. The balance between Scots, Borderers and Northern English, I couldn't even begin to guess at.

So as it stands, I'd strip out the Ordonnance troops and Stradiots, and replace them with English 'demi-lances', Border horse and mounted archers. Otherwise it looks okay to me.

[Stuart]

Thanks again, very informed and much appreciated though at my painting speed you'll have to wait a few years to see this  but the seed is definitely planted!