Gewalthaufen blog updated: Stradiot Banner Advice Needed!

[Atheling]

Well, the title pretty much says it all really.

See the link below in order to help out a fellow wargamer and make him a happy man  .

http://gewalthaufen.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09/stradiot-banner-advice-needed.html

Enjoy the pics too

Darrell.

[Paul]

Nice looking flag..but doesn´t the flag of venice have 6 cloth tails on it ?

[Atheling]

Nice looking flag..but doesn´t the flag of venice have 6 cloth tails on it ?

I've got no idea. That's one of the reasons why I was asking about it on my blog mate  .

Darrell.

[Arlequín]

It's probably more like 'a Venetian flag' had six tails on it, or possibly that 'the' state flag carried by the commander might have had six tails... they would come in all shapes and sizes, although would conform to a set series of designs. The Venetians were quite 'regimented' and had state workshops for most war materiel, based in The Armoury.

 

[Atheling]

It's probably more like 'a Venetian flag' had six tails on it, or possibly that 'the' state flag carried by the commander might have had six tails... they would come in all shapes and sizes, although would conform to a set series of designs. The Venetians were quite 'regimented' and had state workshops for most war materiel, based in The Armoury.

 

Thanks for your comments Arlequin  .

I've just had a comment made on another forum (Frothers to be precise!!  Not really a fan of that forum- too much  argy-bargey for my liking) from Stephen May who's been asked by Michael to paint up some Stradiots saying that he had been advised that the Stradiots may have carried a Double Headed Eagle into battle. This kind of makes a little sense when you think of the region and financial/economic reach of Byzantium in the past- OK, at least until it's fall in1453(!!) as they famously used the imperial Double Headed Eagle. Can anyone point to a source that confirms this? It would make for some interesting looking units anyway.

Slightly OT (on my own thread too  ), but if I'm not mistaken, some Guilds were set out upon islands where no 'foreigner' was allowed to set foot. I wonder if the same could be said for the folk given charge of producing the banners and standards of the military? I think the most famous Guild to be cut off like this was the glassblowers.

Darrell.

[janner]

My only concern with that is that the Holy Roman Emperor started using a double headed standard after 1400. Indeed Otto IV may have been using it as early as 1250.

Still, that was on a yellow background. So less potential for confusion.

[Atheling]

My only concern with that is that the Holy Roman Emperor started using a double headed standard after 1400. Indeed Otto IV may have been using it as early as 1250.

Still, that was on a yellow background. So less potential for confusion.

I'm going to wait until i hear back from Stephen or Michael before I make an absolute choice. I'll probably go for a couple of designs, one of Venice and one of a coat of arms that an Italian guy told Pete, who posts here, about. I quite like the idea of the 'leader' of the Stradiots having his own coat of arms  .

Of course, all this is subject to change depending upon what I do or don't find out in the near future. I'd certainly hate to have to remove the banner from it's pole and start another one! It's been done before!! 

Darrell.

[Arlequín]

I'm going on guess and hunch here, as I know very little about the Stradiots... but besides the true Stradiots, the term is likely to have been applied to any Balkan light cavalry once the originals became famous, like the later Hussars - everyone had them but few were actual Hungarian Hussars. At Fornovo there were Greek and Italian Stradiots, as well as the 'true' Albanian ones.

I'm with Jenner on this, the double-headed eagle was an 'Imperial' (HRE) design. It is also an Albanian symbol, rooted in their folk lore. Many Albanian nobles had family names which were directly descended from Byzantine noble families, so yes, I would have thought that there would be some (or even a lot of) Byzantine influence.

I doubt Venice, who shared a border with the HRE, would permit (even on the grounds of common sense alone) their troops to bear an 'enemy' symbol, although as a flag pole decoration, who knows?

I do know they were known as capelletti when in Venetian service, which seems incongruous with the 'top hats' they are largely depicted with, so perhaps their head wear was different at first?

The Venetians did isolate their unique specialist trades away from prying eyes, but I doubt they did so with their banners, but who knows? They were surprisingly corporate in their outlook... all Venetian ships were state-owned (vessels could not even be privately owned), for example, with merchants effectively 'renting' them for specific uses and voyages.

Reading about them gives you the impression that not making a profit fell somewhere above treason (or was the same as) in the scale of things. You could possibly argue that it was a state run by accountants and auditors... a chilling thought.

   

[Atheling]

I'm going on guess and hunch here, as I know very little about the Stradiots... but besides the true Stradiots, the term is likely to have been applied to any Balkan light cavalry once the originals became famous, like the later Hussars - everyone had them but few were actual Hungarian Hussars. At Fornovo there were Greek and Italian Stradiots, as well as the 'true' Albanian ones.

I'm with Jenner on this, the double-headed eagle was an 'Imperial' (HRE) design. It is also an Albanian symbol, rooted in their folk lore. Many Albanian nobles had family names which were directly descended from Byzantine noble families, so yes, I would have thought that there would be some (or even a lot of) Byzantine influence.

I doubt Venice, who shared a border with the HRE, would permit (even on the grounds of common sense alone) their troops to bear an 'enemy' symbol, although as a flag pole decoration, who knows?

That's what I was kind of getting at. Byzantine influence would not have so easily dissipated after the fall of Constantinople. Culture is not as easy to remove as the stone walls of the city itself and I'm not so sure that the Ottomans were so interested in the wiping out of culture anyway. Therefore it stands that the Albanians may well have hung onto their Byzantine influences. They were held in high regard by the Venicians and may well have been allowed to take into battle a banner of their own choosing. It is certain that nothing is concrete and it is all open to interpretation.

I do know they were known as capelletti when in Venetian service, which seems incongruous with the 'top hats' they are largely depicted with, so perhaps their head wear was different at first?

Maybe capalletti was a generic term for hat? Maybe a jockular manner of describing the men in the tall hats?  

The Venetians did isolate their unique specialist trades away from prying eyes, but I doubt they did so with their banners, but who knows? They were surprisingly corporate in their outlook... all Venetian ships were state-owned (vessels could not even be privately owned), for example, with merchants effectively 'renting' them for specific uses and voyages.

Reading about them gives you the impression that not making a profit fell somewhere above treason (or was the same as) in the scale of things. You could possibly argue that it was a state run by accountants and auditors... a chilling thought.

Quite!!  

Darrell.

[Arlequín]

Well yes... translating a language literally is prone to error when we are talking about nuances, 'little hats' could well be used in the same context as 'Little John' is, i.e. to describe a guy built like a brick outhouse. One for our Italian members to help us with I think!

Apparently they collected heads as proof of work carried out, literally being paid 'by the head', so maybe that could be a suitable alternative?

 

[Atheling]

Well yes... translating a language literally is prone to error when we are talking about nuances, 'little hats' could well be used in the same context as 'Little John' is, i.e. to describe a guy built like a brick outhouse. One for our Italian members to help us with I think!

We may well require some help 

Apparently they collected heads as proof of work carried out, literally being paid 'by the head', so maybe that could be a suitable alternative?

 

The French (I think) once offered the Stradiots such a manner of payment and there was a case of one Stradiot who cut off the head of a local priest and presented it as proof of payment 

[janner]

Well yes... translating a language literally is prone to error when we are talking about nuances, 'little hats' could well be used in the same context as 'Little John' is, i.e. to describe a guy built like a brick outhouse.

It wasn't his height that was in question (cough) still it might have been a very cold day...

[Atheling]

It wasn't his height that was in question (cough) still it might have been a very cold day...

 

I know not what you mean sir! 

Darrell.

[Arlequín]

It wasn't his height that was in question (cough) still it might have been a very cold day...