Knight Models have done a Batman game

[leonmallett]

I think "real 28mm" is falling on the wayside... Quite a few scifi minis companies are making what is described as "32mm scale" these days, which really means ca. 35mm top-of-the-head. If KM is measuring that way, instead of to the eye level, then they aren't overtly huge compared to quite a bit of what's become on offer over the last 5 or so years. Of course the comparison should be to modern/very near future minis really and I can't say if they are shifting the size up on that front as well.

One of the notable in that 'bigger than 28mm' arena is Wyrd/Malifaux isn't it? And I am sure that they are around the 35mm mark in reality.

I don't imagine the 35mm decision is a sales driver to the game, as more profit will be yielded on the minis than the rules.

Equally, given the high cost per unit likely as a KM product, I suspect that even if these were 28mm, that there would be only limited uptake among fans of other games such as Supersystem in particular (even with its open build rules), and to a lesser extent Pulp City or other alternatives; that is simply based on the logic follow-through of the price points associated with those games.

What will drive sales is that these are licensed minis, with a license that is very attractive to a certain part of the hobby audience, and presumably well-sculpted. Whether that will drive sufficient sales to make a return after up-front costs is another question. However getting back on point, I think KM will have chosen 35mm not to differentiate, but simply to appeal to a couple of sectors of the hobby market audience: the collectors, the painters. And 35mm will allow for a better 'canvas' for the painters than say 28mm. And that is ore significant I feel when you consider the quality of the sculptors and the quality of the studio paint-jobs they have.

[Major_Gilbear]

But why of flipping fecking feck why do they always have to go 35 frigging mm!!!!??!?! I'm all for 'exclusivity' but come on, 28mm and you get more sales, more cross over and more pick up potential surely as people can add to what they have and proxy in all directions surely!?!??!

[...]I think KM will have chosen 35mm not to differentiate, but simply to appeal to a couple of sectors of the hobby market audience: the collectors, the painters. And 35mm will allow for a better 'canvas' for the painters than say 28mm. And that is ore significant I feel when you consider the quality of the sculptors and the quality of the studio paint-jobs they have.

I don't think the scale is that much of an issue really Commander V; as noted above by leonmallet, the scale reflects the possibility of sculpting better and finer detail, and whilst the figures are a tad taller than "heroic" 28mm, they are most obviously slimmer - which means they are about the same size but look much taller. And with proprietary licences, most people don't mix-n-match different universe backgrounds.

That said, the best way to drive model sales is with a game. That's what Wyrd learned, and that's why everyone and their dog is putting out a game to accompany their minis at the moment.

If you set the price at something affordable (even if expensive, £5-6 per figure is still reasonably affordable... £12-15 is not so much), and you have a decent game too, people will buy into the game. SW games in the past all seem to have been designed to rip off customers as fast as possible rather than to provide good models and/or rules and longevity. When KM did their SW range I had hoped that they'd keep it around, add to it, and perhaps eventually publish a game around it to match the quality of the sculpts.

Also, with things like Batman... I'd maybe get Batman, and a few villains. That's it; why would I have *any* incentive to buy more? But with SW, most people would likely buy more than just a few Jedi/characters; there's literally legions of Stromtroopers and Droids to buy in bulk in order to have skirmishes and battles with.

<Shrugs> Oh well. <Returns to painting KM Stormtroopers>

[tnjrp]

That said, the best way to drive model sales is with a game. That's what Wyrd learned, and that's why everyone and their dog is putting out a game to accompany their minis at the moment

Completely OT but I've often wondered why the "reciprocality" (in quotes since I think it's at best very close to nonexistent in practice) in miniature gaming business doesn't extent even to rules writers and miniature makers collaborating on game projects (there are some random examples but not many). In other words, one might think the rules writing companies would more often be called upon to produce official rules for a miniature makers' figs. But again it may be something the latter don't think would encourage the sales of their particular miniatures unless the former promised the latter exclusivity -- which they can't for their own reasons. It's seen as a case of what I called "a smaller slice of a cake that isn't going to be considerably larger" earlier.

Also, with things like Batman... I'd maybe get Batman, and a few villains. That's it; why would I have *any* incentive to buy more? But with SW, most people would likely buy more than just a few Jedi/characters; there's literally legions of Stromtroopers and Droids to buy in bulk in order to have skirmishes and battles with

Well yes, they probably would if the price was right... That is to say, cheap. But I would wager KM made the decision to drop the SW licence either because Luca$ Fi£m was fleecing them for it and/or their current sales of SW stuff wasn't what they hoped for and they projected it won't be profitable even if they put out a mass battle game. Neither fact is likely going to be disclosed of course.

With Batman, they likely get a cheaper lisence (and one they have paid for anyway, at least in part, for the 70mm stuff) and not an inconsiderable number of characters (from the comics produced over the period of what is fast approaching a century) that are likely to all sell one of to everyone playing if the price per quality isn't quite abysmal. I would think they figure going more @ Wyrd than @ Mantic is going to pay off for them.

Or possibly they are just really st00pid short sighted economically. Perhaps we can draw some conclusions once we see how this game sells, or not.

[Major_Gilbear]

Completely OT but I've often wondered why the "reciprocality" (in quotes since I think it's at best very close to nonexistent in practice) in miniature gaming business doesn't extent even to rules writers and miniature makers collaborating on game projects (there are some random examples but not many). In other words, one might think the rules writing companies would more often be called upon to produce official rules for a miniature makers' figs. But again it may be something the latter don't think would encourage the sales of their particular miniatures unless the former promised the latter exclusivity -- which they can't for their own reasons. It's seen as a case of what I called "a smaller slice of a cake that isn't going to be considerably larger" earlier.

Well, for anything generic or historical, having a ruleset probably doesn't help to shift any more minis than not having one.

But for a proprietary or licensed backgrounds, I think it does help.

Remember, GW use their rules to influence sales, and I'm nearly certain that companies like Privateer Press must see higher sales of "game-good" models than "game-bad" models, regardless of how good or bad the sculpts are. Wyrd really only came into most people's horizons after they came out with a ruleset, and the same could be said of a number of other smaller games companies too.

Regardless, I think that KM are probably fans of the licence material themselves, and they are aiming primarily at the collector / top-end painter market than the game market. News of the Batman game however indicates to me that they've realised the potential of having a ruleset to help drive sales.

What saddens me is that they didn't realise this sooner when the had the SW licence, as that may have encouraged them to keep it and develop it.

All that said, I do know that different licences have different costs and conditions attached to them (duh!), and I understand that a requirement of the the SW licence is that the licensee must add something new to the SW universe (all approved and sanctioned by Lucas Arts, of course!). Now, whether this applies to collector models, busts, props, etc, I'm not sure (I doubt it). But I'm fairly certain that it does apply to any games that use it, and there may be additional cost and risk associate with that, which could well be why KM never produced a SW game themselves.

[Patrick R]

Most licences were fairly cheap until the early 2000's.  The Star Wars deals after the Prequels came out just killed the option for most miniature/gaming companies.  Global Games in Canada did pick up the licence after West End folded, but had to close shop before they could actually release their miniatures, saw some of the pre-production 28mm Stormtroopers and while not the best miniatures on the market, they could have had a contender ...

[goon3423]

In case anyone still cares they just posted on Facebook the game will be 30mm, so good news there!

[tnjrp]

I care

For those not fond of F-book, here's BoW on the subject:
http://www.beastsofwar.com/knight-models/details-knight-models-batman-miniatures-game-emerge/

The 30mm scale (a little smaller than that current Bats fig of theirs, oddly) should be good 'cuz it's easier to find "cannon fodder" for the heroes and villains to kick around. Not too many should be needed tho in any case, based on the current info.

[tnjrp]

On the subject of the scope of the game, despite being touted in the text as a generic Batman Miniatures Game, it looks like it's going to be very strongly influenced by the comp game Batman: Arkham City at least to begin with*. All promo pictures so far say "Arkham City" and the aesthetic also looks like it's from AC:
http://sphotos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/578393_290122327754759_508587155_n.jpg
http://sphotos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/400225_290134881086837_185473347_n.jpg

More on the presumable character selection:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman:_Arkham_City#Characters

No doubt they'll branch into wider "batverse" eventually tho. Also, hopefully they'll branch into publishing news about this outside of Fecesbook

---

*) they should definitely start considering expansion during next year

[tnjrp]

KM continues to publish information on Facebook only, here's (most of) their post about the mechanics:

Batman Miniature Game is a skirmish turn-based miniature game.

The first thing is band creation, you will love this part because there will be a lot of possibilities. [...] The idea is that there will be bosse like the Joker, Penguin, Two-Face .... and they can fight each other as well.... On the other hand many characters of the Batman Universe are not so important to form their own band, these are called "free agents" and will ally to one side or the other according to that point of the story and their background. Each boss can have sidekicks and lackeys, or be replaced by one of them, these sidekicks will modify the way you play with that band.

Each character will have a Reputation value (is the equivalent to what other games call "cost" or "points"). Also some characters will cost USD because they have some special rules or expensive equipment. Dollars will be used to buy additional equipment for your lackeys as well.

Turn will be divided in several phases, first Plan Preparation. The Motivation score will determine the number of actions each character can take each turn, in this phase you will distribute this tokens forming your plan. The plan is open so the opponent can see where you place your tokens, making a very tactical and deep game.

Then comes the activation phase of the miniature, eachn player take turns activating the habilities of the characters following the previous plan, p.e. Batman can use the Batclaw or throw a Batarang, Bane can use a Titan dosis, a Clown his Insane Laughter... as we release figures you will discover the potential of each character and their rules. Each character will be special and charismatic so the player can feel the resemblace to comics, video games and movies of this wonderful world.

After activation phase the turn is over and any effect or recovery of the characters is resolved (yes!, characters can recover from KO or heal injuries).

Here are the latest pix Tabletop Gaming News has picked from the Fb (seems like):
http://www.tabletopgamingnews.com/2012/10/27/66045/

Killer Croc looks pretty nifty...

[hendybadger]

Knight have just posted a release list-

 Release list for Batman Miniature Game

November

- Batman
- Joker's crew starter set
- Harley Quinn
- Killer Crock
- Gotham policemen

December

- donwload rules
- Penguin crew starter set
- Catwoman
- Bane
- Nightwing

And more surprises

[obsidian3d]

I'm not really sure why I'd buy these when I have several hundred heroclix figures in the other room that are easily repainted or converted. Granted they probably won't be as nicely sculpted, but I'm alright with that. For a lot of other hobbyists thought, this will be a must-buy I'm sure.

[leonmallett]

I'm not really sure why I'd buy these when I have several hundred heroclix figures in the other room that are easily repainted or converted. Granted they probably won't be as nicely sculpted, but I'm alright with that. For a lot of other hobbyists thought, this will be a must-buy I'm sure.

It is for this one. For me it is the sculpting standard which I expect to be high + Batman-Arkham mythos + gaming potential that is the winning combo. I know it is going to be expensive, but despite that i am very interested to get straight into this.

[tnjrp]

Well, many people do seem to be allergic to plastic. Or perhaps it's just to "expensive" hard plastic

ETA: I do hope the KM guys won't be doing their own English kanguage proofreading -- assuming the "donwload rules" are even going to in English

[exploding youth]

Some minis are available! Pretty pricey, but pretty pretty! http://www.knightmodels.com/?&id_lang=1

[Commander Vyper]

Unfortunately as much as I like these, £40+ for four 30mm figures (joker gang) just doesn't work for me.

Anyway with new 52 wiping out all reference to Tim Drake as the third robin, DC and I are not talking currently.