Quick question about Norman heraldry

[JollyBob]

Right lads, this one's yours...

I have been looking at Norman shield designs and was wondering if they had any sort of household or livery system.

Its not really a period I know much about, but I'm inferring from what I've seen that aside from shields and flags there wasn't much to identify who was in who's service.

Does anyone know if there was a tradition of men at arms or retainers using their lord's colours or badges to identify them at that point in history? Or did people just tend to use their own and paint whatever they felt like on their shields? Obviously at that time there were no surcoats to display arms on, but surely there was some way to recognise friend and foe if they had lost their shields in battle.

Wasn't there? Wouldn't that be sensible?

This is bothering me more than it should, Morrisons have a special offer on real ale so I am slightly drunk and obsessive... sorry...   

[Mr.J]

As far as I'm aware this seems like a fairly grey area. I had the same dilemma when painting mine and I couldn't find much compelling evidence either way. Ultimately I decided it would be logical for them to share common shield designs or colours as a way of identifying each other but as I said I couldn't find solid evidence for this.

I've read several novels set during the Norman period and they included common designs so I figured that I would just go with it too.

[Paul]

It´s a good question. The bayeux tapestry shows some "ephemeral personalised" shield designs (dragons and the like)but as far as I know the system of heraldry wasn´t brought into full effect until later
http://www.heraldry.ws/heraldry/index.html

[Arlequín]

I'm not certain either, but I don't think there was a formal heraldic system in use at that time, it was largely a case of choosing your own personal 'avatar', which was then represented on your shield and banner... which led to a need to formalise things due to duplication.

I'd imagine it was very confusing as far as the identification went... presumably the body of men running towards you shouting something foreign would hint at which side they were on though.

 

[vonplutz]

To echo what has been said no the Normans during the conquest had no sense of heraldry. The first instance of heraldry being used as a family idea in Anglo-Norman culture was Henry II adopting the leopard from his fathers arms and making them the Norman ducal (thus English royal as well) arms. That was not until the 12th century.

[JollyBob]

Thanks chaps, that's about what I expected and nice to have it confirmed. 

So does that mean then, if I want to field a force comprising Baron Odo de Bodo and his retainers, the Baron would have his own colours (for want of a better word) and the soldiery would be able to make up their own? Or would they refelct his arms in some way, maybe a simplified version like half blue, half white instead of a white dragon on a blue field?

Or should I just make it up and go with whatever looks good? 

[OSHIROmodels]

Or should I just make it up and go with whatever looks good? 

This 

I've seen (I believe on here several years ago) someone paint all his Normans in the same unit with matching shields; colours if not designs, and it looked wrong 

cheers

James

[Arlequín]

Their unifying colour would be 'chainmail' surely? 

I don't know, I would think their appeal would be their irregularity and lack of conformity. How that worked out for them in real life is a poser though...

[Estarriol]

I'm not certain either, but I don't think there was a formal heraldic system in use at that time, it was largely a case of choosing your own personal 'avatar', which was then represented on your shield and banner... which led to a need to formalise things due to duplication.

I'd imagine it was very confusing as far as the identification went... presumably the body of men running towards you shouting something foreign would hint at which side they were on though.

 

I suspect that at least three different languages were spoken by the William's forces alone at Hastings...

I suggest just googling some images from the Bayeux tapestry as well. Most of the shields seem to depict stylised crosses.

[Arlequín]

I suspect that at least three different languages were spoken by the William's forces alone at Hastings...

None of them would be English though, so it still works... sort of. 

Good call on the Bayeux Tapestry though and I might add that there are loads of pics of Norman wargame figures, with some quite fantastic designs, on Google Images. Not a 'historical source', but worth seeing how someone else did it.

[JollyBob]

Thanks for the input, all. Very useful.