Shoot N' Skedaddle - SNS PDF version available for $7, rules free online.

[Elbows]

I'm close to having a "final" draft ready I guess.  Things that'll be added still:

-table of contents
-recovery roll rules
-more special rules
-scenario suggestions
-sample maps
-posse/gang sheet
-cheat sheet
-supporters/thanks/links page

Okay, so maybe not as close as I thought, but I can see the light at the end of the tunnel.  Only 10-15 more pages I'd guess!

[religon]

I missed your game at Southern Front due to hosting another game at the same time, but one of the participants hosted a game in Durham, NC last week. Nice game. The gunfighting rules are great. The components are top shelf. I have some concerns about the close combat probabilities, but easily changed if necessary. I think you have a winner here.

[Elbows]

Ah, you must have gamed with Ryan.  I intentionally nerfed close combat compared to a number of other games.  Like you said though, easily changed if players wish to make it more violent.  I find a few too many games make close combat much more deadly than shooting, etc.  Once SnS is done and I take a reasonable break, work on some other projects etc. I plan on likely coming back and producing a Plains War expansion which will introduce Indians and Cavalry as two new factions (hinted at by the prototype cards earlier in this thread).  Needless to say the Indians will be quite good at close combat by comparison.

I hope you enjoyed the games. 

[religon]

Yes. Ryan hosted the game. After soccer season ends, I plan on gaming more with him in Cary. (You may remember me as Brian and Kyle's friend that also offered to lend you miniatures at Southern Front if you needed more.)

I did enjoy the game.

I actually had a different take on close combat.

The scenario was 3:10 to Yuma. I played the Lawmen getting a hostage (Bad-guy gang leader) to the train within the time limit. I had a Marshal (rifle/dual six-guns), Judge (sawed-off shotgun/derringer), Doctor(shotgun) and Cowboy (Winchester/lariat/Colt 45). The outlaws were a Shootist (dual six-guns), Lady with 2 six-guns, thug with a gun, Hired Gun with rifle and a rich guy with a rifle.

With a mixture of tactical play and semi-hot dice rolling. I killed 4 of the outlaws leaving only the weak, wounded "rich guy" while losing only the doctor. Steamroll right? The "return from the dead" outlaw card turns, reviving the Thug.

The problem was the Thug vs. the Judge. With 1 wound, the Judge was hopeless when based by the Thug. My Judge couldn't use the derringers. I feared leaving combat with the very high probability that I would lose the Judge and release the hostage/prisoner. I used the cowboy to try to lariat the Thug and used the Marshal to shoot into the melee. In the end all died. Fair result, but hardly thematic with the Judge representing a heroic figure. Even unwounded, the Judge would be terrified of a lowly thug in a throw down.

I did the math after the game.
A) Just a d6 vs d8 in close combat is nearly a 2:1 advantage to the stronger pugilist.
B) A d8 vs a last chance d6 (common for wounded figures) is nearly 3:1.
C) A d12 vs a last chance d6 is over 10:1.

Some house rule ideas that I considered to fix what I perceived as an issue...

1) Wounds can't drive close combat below d6.
2) Reducing the free blow suffered exiting close combat to 1 dice lower than the opponent regularly inflict. (d8 is reduced to d6.)
3) Converting the opposed dice rolls to all d12's.
+1 for d8 pugilists.
+2 or +3 for d12 pugilists. (Character by character assessment.)
-2 for last chance d6 pugilists.
 
While I haven't done the math for the third "fix", the odds seem closer to what I think more ideal.

A) 1.3:1
B) 2.0:1
C) 3.0:1

Just my thoughts, reflecting my preference for this genre of games to be decided by gunplay. I think flattening the differences in close combat helps achieve than end. I really like the game.

Cheers,
Robert

[Elbows]

Unfortunately...what you described is part of why I designed the game like that.  

D12 vs. "Last Chance" = A normal citizen off the street suffers a broken arm...then gets into a fight with a trained UFC fighter.    We know how that'll end 9 times out of 10. 

Two characters of similar skill and ability share a decent chance of beating each other down.  A wounded character with poor Scrap to start with should lose horribly to a character who excels in close combat (the Thug being one of them).  I suppose the Thug can more accurately be labeled a big huge bruiser.  The Judge is not a great fighting character, whereas the Thug is almost solely useful in close combat.  So it will always be an obnoxiously difficult fight for the Judge - much more so if he's wounded.

That being said, I always encourage house rules if players want to use them.  If I understand your incident correctly, it may have been worth trying to rush more characters into close combat.  The outnumbering characters then all gain +1 Scrap, and when activated, the player with multiple characters is allowed to fight each combat individually in an order he chooses.

PS: Also, when revived the Thug should also have remained wounded.  That should have taken him down to Scrap D8 (making him much easier to tackle with a couple additional characters).

In the end, I encourage anyone to play it however they feel works best.  The beauty of games like SnS is that they are not intended for any kind of tournament play.  

[religon]

Thanks for the response. I'm reassured that the math is well considered and intended.

As for the specifics of the scenario, the Thug was fought off once and killed. When revived, he came back at Scrap d8, wounded. The only relief the Judge could get was from the Cowboy who failed a charge test for close combat. The lariat had worked before, shocking the Thug and allowing the Judge to run off, so it was attempted again. (I'm unsure if this was official or Ryan's scenario rule allowing a lariat into melee and allowing a disengage.) The Marshal was too far off to join the fray. It was the underlying probabilities leading to scenario resolution through melee rather than gunfire that gave me pause.

Even had the Cowboy managed to double-team the Thug, he would need to fight the wounded Thug even (d8 vs. d8). The lariat stands the same 50% chance at no risk to the Cowboy and most importantly, doesn't trigger a fight with the Judge if the Thug wins the first fight and survives. With even chances for the Thug to win while the Cowboy fights first, the Judge would then only have a 33% chance of prevailing in the event of a second fight vs. the Thug (d6 vs. d8). (The first fight against the unwounded Thug was much more difficult for the Lawmen.)

Some of the disconnect between the story and the mechanics may have been that the Thug model was an elderly prospector with a single-shot rifle instead of Corporal Wallace (Mario Brega) of The Good, The Bad and the Ugly. As the math works out, Corporal Wallace might be more of a Scrap d8 and a d12 reserved for an especially rank Grizzly Bear.

Cheers,
Robert

FWIW: In the mid-portion of the game, I drew a "Shootout" card allowing me the option to have my Judge with a sawed-off shotgun square off against the Shootist with 2 pistols. As I considered the option, Ryan advised me against it as the Shootist was one of the most deadly characters. I opted to have the shootout contrary to the advice and prevailed. I think the math supports my choice with about a 45% chance the Judge is killed in the first exchange and about a 65% chance the Shootist is killed. (I also got a free reload of the empty shotgun in the bargain.) That is how the Judge got the first wound as he directed another outlaw to Boot Hill.

[Elbows]

Just the scenario you ran into gave me some special rules or exceptions to add to the rules.

I think a lasso into close combat is fine, but would suffer the same chance of missing and ensnaring the wrong person.  It would then Shock the target which I think would definitely allow a free escape from close combat - OR - the Thug would suffer an additional -1 to his close combat for the next activation of fighting (then removing the shocked token as per close combat rules).

At the time you guys played I didn't have the handcuff rules printed out - as they are now in the rules.

Now, I don't know if I typed it up, but when a group of characters in close combat outnumbers an enemy character, the characters who outnumber may leave combat without a penalty (until the combat becomes 1 vs. 1 at which point the normal rules kick in).  I'll have to see if that's actually written into the "multiple combat" rules or not.  This would have given you an option depending on the draw of cards and who activated first.

At the heart of your situation was really one of the best close combat characters vs. a non-combatant (while the Judge sounds all heroic, he's more comfortable swinging a gavel than his fist, is really more in line with the Town Person type of character - not really suitable for a fierce fight).

Glad you won the shootout - always dicey with a shotgun as you have one chance before suffering a reload action.  Every shootout I've seen has been wildly different...something that never ceases to amuse me.

Of course I think what we've learned here: Shoot the Thug.  A lot.*

*During a game at Siege of Augusta the Lawmen ran into a very sturdy Thug who was shot once...then twice...then finally killed...then revived...then shot again.  The players asked if they could go and shoot him directly in the head while he was down.  I allowed them to do this (though there were no more revive cards in the deck).  He gave them a lot of trouble.

 

PS: I toyed around with the idea of a character gaining a +1 bonus to Guts when charging into a multiple combat with an ally.  Do you think this makes sense?  More akin to run into a fight when your buddy is in trouble, less thinking about your own neck?  Or something like allowing a re-roll, or ignoring the Guts test altogether?

[religon]

...when a group of characters in close combat outnumbers an enemy character, the characters who outnumber may leave combat without a penalty (until the combat becomes 1 vs. 1 at which point the normal rules kick in)....

Of course I think what we've learned here: Shoot the Thug.  A lot.*

...

PS: I toyed around with the idea of a character gaining a +1 bonus to Guts when charging into a multiple combat with an ally.  Do you think this makes sense?  More akin to run into a fight when your buddy is in trouble, less thinking about your own neck?  Or something like allowing a re-roll, or ignoring the Guts test altogether?

I was unaware of the 2 vs. 1 allows one of the characters to disengage. In my situation, would the Cowboy have needed to charge the wounded Thug to relieve the helpless Judge? This would have triggered two consecutive close combats in the order of my choice. Likely Cowboy then Judge. The next Judge activation would then allow him to escape if the Thug doesn't activate first?

The lesson to Shoot the Thug.  A lot. was readily apparent even to a novice player like myself. That is how the Thug was killed before his revival. (And ultimately killed the second time by shooting into combat.)

Bonuses on the charge roll or auto-success when joining a fray seem reasonable. I don't think it is enough to prevent the dynamic where d8 and d12 Scrap characters prey on wounded d8 characters and unharmed d6 characters. Few scenarios are going to allow second and third characters from joining a brawl with as few figures as this game typically places on the table. They are busy fighting off other characters. Convention games with turn limits, objectives or time limits also make large quagmires less of an option than in club or solo games.

Some gamers like the dynamic of shoot the bad brawler before he gets to you as a counter. I know that Warhammer Fantasy Battles has this as the counter to big monsters. Shoot them with a cannon before they hit your lines. It's a wildly popular game, but it seems the game's outcome is often decided by whether the monster can reach the lines before being shot.

With the Guts bonus for entering a fray, the following might keep Scrap d12 characters very powerful, but not such that players feel the need to stake them through the heart after they are killed.

Fight for Your Life (for all Characters)
Wounds do not reduce Scrap d6 below that threshold.

One Tough Hombre
Reduce the characters Scrap value from d12 to d8, however if he wins the close combat and has not already activated twice in the turn, he may use a future activation to trigger another close combat immediately. When the next activation card is turned, the Tough Hombre must place it in the discard pile rather than activate. Tough Hombres ignore wounds with regard to close combat (always a Scrap of d8).

Outside of melee, the game is pitch perfect...cover, Guts tests, reloads, the math, theme, etc. I wish to be constructive. Just my thoughts. I'm sure others think close combat is great in the current form.

Cheers,
Robert

[Elbows]

Question for the guys who have played the game or read the rules:

Moving Fast: Currently a character who moves MORE than 12" is counted as Moving Fast (which applies a -1 penalty to characters who shoot at them).  This is done so that mounted characters and only a handful of particularly fast characters can benefit from this - the few characters who have a Move value of 8", as opposed to the normal 6".

Would players prefer this be 12" or More?  (allowing all characters to possibly Move Fast if they roll a 6 when attempting to run?)

[Legionaire22]

   Initially I misread this to be 12" or more. It was brought to my attention by Tom just before he contacted you for clarification. I have been giving the modifier to anyone who has a 6" movement and rolls a 6 for running, just so everyone has a chance to move fast.

        Jim

[Elbows]

Legionaire - I'll be making that change to 12"+ (this gives most people a chance to run for their lives and I like that idea...I think)

Slaughter at Two Buckets River

To test a scenario for Fall In 2013, I managed to convince my brother to come over and game it with me.  We scaled it down from 9 vs. 9 to 6 vs. 6.  Without spilling too many details the goal here is for the Outlaws to flee across a Ferry crossing and escape off the board.

The board...(ignore the floor, we're rennovating the space slowly...it's a destroyed attic to a garage)



All of these pictures were taken after the game...merely showing the aftermath.



The river is another section of similar nautical vinyl, just cut out and laid on top.  It's quick and works, and since "river" scenarios will be a bit scarce, it's the cheapest way I could do it easily.

Highlights:
-Both posse and gang were rather shoot bunches (Shootist, Drifter, several Hired Guns, etc.)
-The Outlaw leader was gunned down before he ever activated...failing to guide a pack mule (loaded with precious goods)


The Bad Man was gunned down before he could even turn around...

The Lawmen get the Outlaws on the run and are about to catch them at the Ferry crossing when an ill-resolved shootout puts down one of the Deputies.  The Outlaw hired gun is shot down by the shootist...only to revive a moment later and wound the Shootist.  The Drifter takes a hostage and calmly walks onto the Ferry, with a prospector guiding the second packmule onto the ferry.

Once on the ferry the Drifter discards the hostage into the water, as he was taking up critical space.  The wounded Hired Gun operates the ferry, sending his comrades to safety.


The Lawmen watch as the Outlaws flee across the river.

The Hired Gun is finished by a Shootout with a priest, and the Marshal arrives late (having concentrated on special cards rather than moving into the fray).


The mended Shootist storms ashore, chasing down the Outlaws

In desperation the Lawmen's Shootist dove into the water, as the Priest pulled on the ferry, bringing it back.  The Shootist crawled aboard and shot as he was pulled over to the far side.  In a blaze of gunfire the Shootist storms onto the shore, killing the Hired Gun, and then the Drifter...even the pack mule.


The Ferry at Two Buckets River...a horrible ending.

On the far side of the river, two Outlaws and two Lawmen had engaged, with one of the Outlaws fleeing.  A Town Person had crept up onto a nearby rocky outcrop, leapt onto the roof of the Ferry house and had been firing wildly with his lever action.  He was shot directly in the face with a Shotgun and died, his body sliding off the roof.


The brave Town Person met an untimely end...


The bloody end to the fight.

The game swung wildly both ways and was rather poor luck on the Outlaws side (they lost a character from a special card while the Lawmen gained one).  While they seemed doomed, the Outlaws then made a miraculous return to the form, killing several Lawmen.  In the end the lone Shootist saved the day.  He was the recipient of no less than three consecutive "activate X" special cards...allowing him to go on a one-man rampage against the fleeing Outlaws.

Overall a good game, lots of laughs and typically impossible situations.  A few tweaks and the scenario should be set for Fall In.  With more characters per side, the mayhem may be even more extreme.

[Elbows]

One request...if anyone happens to play SnS, please post some pics here with a simple blurb of information (where the game was played, if it was at a convention etc.)  I'd like to post stuff to the blog that I've ignored for the past 5 months...

[Mason]

One request...if anyone happens to play SnS, please post some pics here with a simple blurb of information (where the game was played, if it was at a convention etc.)  I'd like to post stuff to the blog that I've ignored for the past 5 months...

I have had the card decks at work for a while now, and bloody brilliant they look too!

I have left them there as I know I will be seriously distracted by them if I take them home.

Once BLAM is out of the way I shall be taking a 'proper' look and moving into the Old West in a more 'serious' way.

An AAR will not be far off, I reckon.
 

[CptJake]

I have to laugh.

Cards at work okay.   Can't have them at home because they would cause a distraction.

That folks, is a guy with his priorities in order.

 

[Elbows]

Indeed*! 

*as I type this at work on my laptop...