The livery of Humphrey stafford?

[Berg]

I am getting a bit confused about Wotr livery colours and i was hoping someone could help me with a quick question.

The Duke of Buckinghams livery is described as "sable over gules" and if i understand correcly this means black on the right and red on the left of the livery coat. There is a colour drawing of this coat on the back of the Perry Wotr-box but with red on the right side and black on the left, am i missing something?

In short should paint the livery coat on the miniatures right side black or red?

Regards
Johan

[monkeylite]

The Black is on the right. It just looks like the left, coz you're looking at it. If you were wearing it, it would be on the right.

[PanzerKaput]

Its meant to be black on the right hand side

[Argonor]

Yes, 'right' corresponds to 'dexter', which is right as seen by the wearer of the arms (as opposed to 'sinister', left as seen by the wearer).

Heraldic emblazoning follows a strict set of rules that all stem back from the actual use of shields and surcoats.

[Berg]

Thanks for the help!

The Buckingham livery coat on the back of the perry wotr box seems to be the wrong way around as the badge should be on the left side?

Regards
Johan

 

[Osmoses]

It looks like they've just got the colours the wrong way round on the Stafford picture. All the others follow the usual rule, and if Stafford's colours were reversed to better show the badge, then they would have done it with Fauconberg too. So I think it's just an error.

[UbiqueMatt]

15th century stained glass from Ledbury church which may be of interest:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=ledbury+stained+glass&espv=2&biw=902&bih=619&tbm=isch&imgil=PDqx9ELtmX1XXM%253A%253BNmoGsbL9mKwbiM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.alamy.com%25252Fstock-photo-medieval-stained-glass-in-st-michael-and-all-angels-church-ledbury-72558268.html&source=iu&pf=m&fir=PDqx9ELtmX1XXM%253A%252CNmoGsbL9mKwbiM%252C_&usg=__xHu6W9q1gqCQ2QL2IXI7mh7NIts%3D&ved=0ahUKEwim4IO6wfDOAhXqB8AKHfFtArEQyjcIOg&ei=U1nJV-bqGOqPgAbx24mICw#imgrc=PDqx9ELtmX1XXM%3A

[UbiqueMatt]

Here's another image relating to Buckingham. Note the Stafford knot picked out with studs (right on the door along the central band protected by wire) on the original medieval gate house door at Maxstoke castle:

[Arlequín]

Livery colours were neither fixed, nor subject to the rules of heraldry. The tradition of wearing blazer badges on the left breast (close to the heart), stems from liveries... but larger central badges were common too.

"Sable over gules" would refer to the livery standard. All the images I've seen reconstructing Buckingham's livery jackets have red on the wearer's left and black on his right, as did the badge used without permission by Buckingham Town Council in 1566. More recent badges derived from the livery (Buckinghamshire, Aylesbury F.C. etc) routinely reverse the colours each time they are re-imagined for a new use.

The white swan, the knot and waterwheel are all badges associated with the family. There is a train of thought that each badge was attached to a specific title held within the family, but were hereditary. So for argument's sake, the 'Duke' had the Swan, his eldest as Lord Stafford had the Knot and perhaps the second son as Lord Somewhere Else had the wheel. Only if an individual possessed all of the family titles did they all appear on his household standard. It would certainly explain why some nobles bore a single badge, while others had two, or in the case of one of the Percy's four.

This could extend to the men raised from the lands associated with the titles, so men from the duchy marched under the Swan, men from the Manor of Stafford under the Knot and so on.

Nothing to prove this of course, but it does make a certain sense of why some badges were used and others were not at various times.