Mayhem Skaven army list

[Vermis]

As mentioned in another Mayhem topic, I've been converting Skaven stats and rules using Mayhem's unit creation rules. I've statted up almost everything that GW has to offer (for WHFB; I might take a look at converting Warmaster stats too, and try blending the two sets) and I post the results here for comment and criticism. Notes in italics.

GREY SEER

Mov   D8
CQ    D20
BAR   D12
Sorceror - can take Blink, Magic Missile and/or Summon
Standard
One per army

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GREY SEER ON SCREAMING BELL

The Grey Seer may be mounted on a Screaming Bell; in which case it uses the following profile:

Mov   D6
CQ   D8
BAR   D8
Chariot
Sorceror - can take Blast, Blink, Magic Missile and/or Summon
Standard
Heavy Armour
Blunt
Fear
Fearless
Can only move as part of an Advance move with Clanrat or Stormvermin units
One per army

I figured that Chariot status would be useful to represent some of the wackier war machines in Warhammer, or at least the Skaven army book. This one's tough and dangerous, being a hefty structure with a rat ogre that'll roll right over your heavy infantry. The addition of Blast to the Grey Seer's repertoire represents the effect of the bell moreso than a boost to his ability. Not too OTT?
I don't know if it's a good idea to go inserting my own arbitrary special rules into unit entries, but the advance with clanrats thing matches how it's pushed along in Warhammer. They could all be included in one unit, but that leads onto another question:
A Grey Seer on a bell is pretty likely to be the army general, but that doesn't mesh so well with starting the game in/as a unit. Even without clanrats I have trouble seeing the bell as 'not a unit'. Feels like it should be targeted and engaged normally. Any advice?

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VERMIN LORD

Mov   D12
CQ   D6
BAR   D8
Behemoth
Sorceror - can take any spells
Blunt
Disciplined
Terror
Steadfast
One per army

So much for a <30pt unit that a Grey Seer could summon! This one's a monster, but looking at the pregenerated monstrous creature rules in the book, is it too monstrous?

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CHIEFTAIN

Mov   D8
CQ   D12
BAR   D12
Hero
Heavy Armour
May have Axe, Great Weapon or Sword
OR
May have Pistol or Rifle
May have Shield
May have Standard with Axe, Sword, Pistol or Shield (one per army)

One Standardless Chieftain in the army may be upgraded to Warlord. (The army General) It may then be upgraded to any of the three following core profiles and additional TAGs (with appropriate models):

WARLORD ON RAT OGRE BONEBREAKER

Mov   D10
CQ   D6
BAR   D10
Behemoth
Fear

WARLORD ON GREAT POX RAT

Mov   D10
CQ   D10
BAR   D12
Beasts

Pox rat counts as cavalry in WH, but here Beasts seems more appropriate.

WARLORD ON WAR LITTER

Mov   D8
CQ   D10
BAR   D10
Standard

Can heroes take standards...?

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PLAGUE PRIEST

Mov   D8
CQ   D12
BAR   D12
Hero
May have Axe (flail), Great Weapon (censer) or Sword (extra hand weapon)
May be a Sorceror - can take Barrier or Blast
May be mounted on a Great Pox Rat; in which case it gains Beasts and the following core profile:

Mov   D10
CQ   D10
BAR   D12

OR

One Plague Priest per army may be mounted on a Plague Furnace; in which case it gains the following Core Profile and TAGS:

Mov   D6
CQ   D12
BAR   D8
Chariot
Heroic Unit
Standard
Heavy Armour
Blunt (Plague Monk's regular weapons can also be purchased, but only one can be used per engagement)
Blunderbuss
Fearless
Can only move as part of an Advance move with Plague Monk units
One per army

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WARLOCK ENGINEER

Mov   D8
CQ   D20
BAR   D12
Hero
May have Great Weapon
OR
May have Pistol or Rifle
May be a Sorceror - can have Blink or Magic Missile

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ASSASSIN



Tough one. I'm not really sure how to represent a Skaven assassin as it is in the Warhammer rules. Doesn't really fit the standard Mayhem hero mould. I have ideas though...

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CLANRATS

Mov   D8
CQ   D20
BAR   D12
May have Shield, Spears, Standard and Musician
OR
May be a Horde, may have Standard

The average standard skaven one which most of the rest of the list is based, and which is itself based on the average light-armoured human. I thought faster reflexes and lower nerve on the clanrats would balance out CQ between the two races, but the faster Mov would make the rats better and more expensive than average humans! Just not right. The CQ had to drop.
Also makes me wonder if I should've based hero stats on clanrat units. In WHFB a Warlord or Chieftain is a lot more powerful than a clanrat, but there's a lot more of the latter, and we're talking about whole units in Mayhem. One (or a handful) of elite warriors vs. a big crowd of low-quality troops - which should have the higher CQ, and how much difference should there be? At the moment I can just about parse it as the hero's stats vs. other heroes, and the boost they provide when they join a unit.

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STORMVERMIN

Mov   D8
CQ   D12
BAR   D12
Heavy Armour
Axe, Spears AND Sword - choose one per engagement
May have Standard, Musician and Shield

Ta to Brent for the suggestion of multiple weapons to represent halberds.

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SKAVENSLAVES

Mov   D8
CQ   D20
BAR   D20
May have Shield
May have Spears or Slings
OR
May be a Horde

By contrast, no trouble figuring the stats here!

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GIANT RATS

Mov   D10
CQ   D20
BAR   D20
Fast Cavalry or Horde
Non-Horde units may have a Master Moulder - upgraded with Standard, Musician, and Sword (whip) or Great Weapon (things-catcher).

Fast Cavalry seems most consistent with the role of small rat packs in Warhammer. Horde seems consistent with big 'uns. Still, should they be optional?
I don't know if Master Moulders should command units other than giant rats and rat ogres like a regular hero, but it seems strange if they don't have a command radius for Clan Moulder units. Hopefully standard and musician offsets any CP losses.

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NIGHT RUNNERS

Mov   D10
CQ   D12
BAR   D20
May have Sword or Slings
OR
May be a Horde

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WEAPON TEAMS

No more Weapon Team units than Clanrat and Stormvermin units in the army

DOOM-FLAYER

Mov   D8
CQ   D10
BAR   D12
Cavalry
Heavy Armour
Lance

The different types of long range/projectile Weapon Teams all use this Core Profile and TAG:

Mov   D8
CQ   D20
BAR   D10
Fast Cavalry

In addition, each Weapon Team unit has one of the following Missile Weapons:

Warpfire Thrower   - Blunderbuss
Ratling Gun      - Repeating Crossbow
Poisoned Wind Mortar   - Heavy Crossbow

I don't know if the lack of skirmisher abilities in Mayhem was intentional, but I think Fast Cav is a reasonable stand-in, particularly for Skaven missile weapon teams. I think it suits their mobility and apparent role - one or two teams on a unit base, representing an actual one or two spread-out teams jogging alongside a massed block of friendly infantry, spinning and hosing the sides of enemy blocks as they move in towards said friendlies. I think the low-number skirmisher formation also helps justify the vulnerability to anti-cav counters and the high BAR. (That includes the heavy armour they apparently have, which on these guys seems better suited to dodging arrows, than resisting the charge of an entire unit with the actual Heavy Armour TAG) Do I get a peanut?
I don't have Warp Grinders in yet. They'll probably do as upgrades to Night Runner and Gutter Runner units. I wonder if I can jimmy Summon rules to represent tunneling, too.

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RAT OGRES

Mov   D10
CQ   D6
BAR   D10
Behemoth
Fear
Rampage
May have a Master Moulder - upgraded to Standard, Musician, and Sword (whip) or Great Weapon (things-catcher).

"D6 for large, dangerous and skilled combatants [like behemoths]" If rat ogres don't fit the bill I don't know what does. Although, like the Vermin Lord, I wonder if they're not too strong.

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GUTTER RUNNERS

Mov   D10
CQ   D12
BAR   D12
Fast Cavalry
Sword or Sling

Kinda wonder if the idea of 'scouts' went the same way as skirmishers.

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PLAGUE MONKS

Mov   D8
CQ   D20
BAR   D12
Sword
Berserker

PLAGUE MONK HORDE

Mov    D8
CQ   D12
BAR   D12
Horde

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PLAGUE CENSER BEARERS

Mov   D8
CQ   D20
BAR   D12
Fast Cavalry
Great Weapon
Berserker
No more Plague Censer units than Plague Monk units or hordes in the army

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JEZZAILS

Mov   D8
CQ   D20
BAR   D10
Shield
Rifle

From the description of some missile weapons, I gather they're not automatically usable with a shield, although this isn't explicitly stated. Better switching to Heavy Armour?

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POISONED WIND GLOBADIERS

Mov   D8
CQ   D20
BAR   D12
Fast Cavalry
Heavy Armour
Sword
Pistol

Sword here represents globadiers at the back chucking globes into combat. Should I give them Beasts for the same reason, to let their whiffy gasses spook the horses?

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HELL PIT ABOMINATION

Use Mayhem Giant rules

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DOOMWHEEL

Mov   D12
CQ   D12
BAR   D10
Chariot
Heavy Armour
Great Weapon
Repeating Crossbow
Fearless
Terror
One per army

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WARP LIGHTNING CANNON

Use Mayhem Cannon rules

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PLAGUECLAW CATAPULT

Use Mayhem Catapult rules

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[Momotaro]

Looks useful - keeping an eye on Mayhem after you recommended it.

How did you find the unit creation - bit of a pain, or fairly straightforward?

[Funghy-Fipps]

Obviously much time and effort has gone into this. Have you had a chance to try any of your lists out?

[VoodooInk]

Vermis- most impressive!!  I especially like that way that you integrated the Warhammer Skaven fluff with the Advance rule. I'll chime in on a few things here real quick [and come back for some more later after some holiday shopping].

Tough one. I'm not really sure how to represent a Skaven assassin as it is in the Warhammer rules.

I don't know if the lack of skirmisher abilities in Mayhem was intentional

Kinda wonder if the idea of 'scouts' went the same way as skirmishers.

The skirmisher and scout concepts will be revealed in the final STRONGHOLD update. Without giving too much away, these units interact with some of the advanced terrain rules in a very specific manner and fulfill some unique tactical roles. Introducing them without all the other pieces to the battle puzzle would create more confusion and questions than answers. Once you see how they operate, it'll make perfect sense.

On the subject of the assassin, just wait for the new material. Players will be able to have a single hero that is also a scout/skirmisher. This combination will help you accomplish the exact build you are trying to create- trust me.

WARLORD ON WAR LITTER

Mov   D8
CQ   D10
BAR   D10
Standard

Can heroes take standards...?

I would make the Warlord on War Litter a heroic unit [unless it's your general!]. It fits both the model and the concept. You can place a standard on your hero, just keep in mind that you are putting more than one egg in that basket since the hero already gives you a die for Command rolls. Then again, if the hero is really tough that may be exactly where you want to put it!

[capthugeca]

just wait for the new material.

Sounds exciting, Brett.
Can't wait so hurry up with your holiday shopping!  :

[Vermis]

Thanks all.

Momotaro: a bit tricky in places. Overall, as mentioned, I did some hmming and haaing about converting figure-based stats, concentrated on individual characters and troops, to an element-based game with individual characters (or as near as) and units of troops. That's the biggest reason I want to try to convert the Warmaster army list too, and check the differences. (Mayhem does look a bit more Warmastery, at least in comparison to WHFB, which is no bad thing in my book)

Also, I'm not entirely sure if I properly abstracted the standard WHFB string of stats and individual special rules into Mayhem's core profile and TAGs. Should a chieftain have a higher CQ? Is the Doom-Flayer - one smallish war machine - too powerful with Lance vs. blocks of troops? Should the Doomwheel get BAR D10 while the Screaming Bell gets BAR D8, and do either 'accurately' represent their WHFB stats? Does Berserker suit Plague Monks...? Just a taster of the indecisiveness that plagues my mind with this and most things.

Funghy-Fipps: haha, no! I've been dithering about for months, trying to settle on a ruleset and even a basing scheme, before starting to build an army. I have a bunch of skaven scraped off ebay, with only a couple of half-converted slaves so far.
Although like I said in the other thread, I have a couple of small Warmaster armies here, and by happy chance one of 'em's skaven. The other's high elves (which I'm also trying to get in 28mm - going for an Island of Blood theme in two scales, tho I wonder if I should focus on the smaller scale) so I guess I could start some profiles for them too. It'll be into January before I get a half-willing opponent anyway.

Brent: thanks for the compliment and teaser! I'll look forward to it.

My thinking was that the upgrade of one chieftain to warlord would involve General, regardless of any mount or none. Although maybe that's too restrictive. General in a unit is the same problem I have with the grey seer on screaming bell - it's a conundrum.

Agreed that Standard on a hero is maybe a bit much, but seemed vaguely appropriate for some of the troop-inspiring choices available to WHFB skaven players - screaming bell, plague furnace, battle standard bearer. Auto-musician is another possibility but that requires a unit, which might already have one. I assume they don't stack?
The little bit of fluff for warlitters (though not the rules) states how the warlord is more imposing and better able to direct troops from his perch. Who knows why a rat ogre or pox rat is a less efficient platform, but I was groping around for something to make it more than the poor man's (rat's) pox rat! Maybe higher BAR is enough.
Or maybe I'm getting too caught up in Warhammer-style granularity and nitpicking. (Although the list is exhaustive partly for anyone who likes a bit of grit; especially bored WH players with lovingly converted warlitters. Personally, I wasn't even interested in taking clan eshin or pestilens units, let alone assassins. )

[VoodooInk]

Also, I'm not entirely sure if I properly abstracted the standard WHFB string of stats and individual special rules into Mayhem's core profile and TAGs. Should a chieftain have a higher CQ? Is the Doom-Flayer - one smallish war machine - too powerful with Lance vs. blocks of troops? Should the Doomwheel get BAR D10 while the Screaming Bell gets BAR D8, and do either 'accurately' represent their WHFB stats? Does Berserker suit Plague Monks...? Just a taster of the indecisiveness that plagues my mind with this and most things. 

My personal recommendation when converting units over to Mayhem is to use the stats [in this case for WHFB] as a starting point only. After that, I would use your interpretation of the game's fluff to build a unit the way you think it should play based on the fiction. I find that many times a unit's stat-line in its original system doesn't match the description of the unit very well [due to the economics of selling miniatures?].

I think you've done a great job of converting everything over. Also, I wouldn't worry about anything that you create being overpowered from a gameplay [balance] perspective. If you think that a particular build supports the way the unit should function, then pay the points an go for it. Things will work out just fine on the tabletop.

[meninobesta]

The skirmisher and scout concepts will be revealed in the final STRONGHOLD update.

great news, I've bought and read your rules. I've liked them a lot but always felt that they were lacking the skirmish concept/rules, and I've always thought that for using skirmishers would just be to add to the unit a better mov die (and didn't found it very amusing)
So I'll be looking forward for the next update

[Vermis]

Ta again, Brent! I hear what you're saying - that's why I put chieftains at the same level as stormvermin rather than reaching rat ogre stats. There are a couple of numbers I might tweak, though.