Blood on the Sands **NEW** Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears...

[Furt]

If you dont mind sharing, what specifically do you feel stuck on?  I get this sometimes with my dissertation as well.

Not at all TBC. I am struggling with the actual chapter layout - particularly, what rules go where and when to introduce certain "mechanics".

Also explaining the combat mechanics eloquently, being the integral part of the game, is causing me some grief. Although I admit that later playtest documents have caused less confusion with newbie players than my first attempts.

Having gotten in a bunch of games now, mostly with first-timers, I agree that the rules themselves feel quite solid.  Everyone who has played has wanted a second game immediately and some mates at the game club expressed interest in trying the campaign rules.  I think I may just try that with 2 other people so we have a group of three, or do you think I should stick with 2?

As the campaign rules aren't completely finalized and could do with some more play testing, I'd suggest a 2 player campaign to begin.

My campaign has been quite successful but has highlighted some areas I'm not completely satisfied with.

Is anyone also getting that sinking feeling that I may never be fully satisfied with a final product...

[Too Bo Coo]

Not at all TBC. I am struggling with the actual chapter layout - particularly, what rules go where and when to introduce certain "mechanics".

Also explaining the combat mechanics eloquently, being the integral part of the game, is causing me some grief. Although I admit that later playtest documents have caused less confusion with newbie players than my first attempts.

As the campaign rules aren't completely finalized and could do with some more play testing, I'd suggest a 2 player campaign to begin.

My campaign has been quite successful but has highlighted some areas I'm not completely satisfied with.

Is anyone also getting that sinking feeling that I may never be fully satisfied with a final product...

I did find combat confusing in the first read, especially without the flowchart, which confirmed I misunderstood some things.  So not only is the newest draft the best so far as to clarity, I also see no problem with player-aides like the flowchart to make it all clear.  I think the basic mechanics are simple enough, but add in the variables of the classes and traits and the ability of people to be unpredictable, then some confusing elements may arise.

One question that came up for us, and I may have missed this in the rules, but my Murmillo opponent lost his shield in turn 3, before the end.  He had already lost 2 Shield Fatigue tokens, but what of the rest?  Did he remove one at the end of Turn 3 for holding the shield in that turn for any length of time, or would he have had to hold it till the end of the turn to lose the token?  For every turn that he does not have the shield, can he regain a Shield-Fatigue token from 'resting'?  

As to 'satisfaction' with one's finished product, I have never written my own game, but I am deeply engaged in the writing process of my dissertation.  I'm 4 out of 6 chapters done and must say, there is always 'room for improvement'.  Despite my perfectionism, I realize it's important to draw the line at some point.  I'm not sure what the cost in your area, or if there is say a local university, but you may want to see if a professional editor can go over your game to proof it for clarity.  In fact, perhaps a non-gamer is best as they wont focus on the 'game' but the mechanics of the language and structure of your instruction set.  I suggest university as a grad student may be the least expensive route....that is if you intend this for a commercial venture which I would STRONGLY encourage! The fella I played against on Sunday begged for a copy of the rules but I told him that I was sorry that they werent available yet but to be patient the finished game should be stellar!

[Watts]

This is just a thought, but if you are going to do a commercial release with nice tokens, dice, playsheets, rules etc., would it be worth doing a larger beta with the rules when you are happy with them? I think everyone would still buy the proper set when it came out - I know I would without hesitation. It might give you an opportunity to see if everything is working before the actual release.

[Too Bo Coo]

I think everyone would still buy the proper set when it came out - I know I would without hesitation.

Ditto.

[Watts]

Out of curiosity, how long do your matches usually last?

[Too Bo Coo]

Out of curiosity, how long do your matches usually last?

I have a large Hotz mat I use, and the gladiators begin 10 squares apart.  In rounds, I'd say 3-4 rounds and it's decisive.  I've also noticed that until his spear breaks, the Hoplomachus is pretty tough to beat.  The Threax is good against them only if they score a hit on a zero success attack.

How about yourself?

[Too Bo Coo]

I'm really loving the game, but I also really like this dice allocation mechanic. 

[Elbows]

I think one of the great things about BOTS is the fact that matches are never identical.  I've had a few matches which resulted in a death within 3-4 rounds, and others which have taken maybe an hour or more to decide between two gladiators (due to great cunning and a non-insubstantial amount of luck).

Furt has a nice large testing group, it's simply the nitty gritty he's struggling with (and something I'm still struggling with in my own game, having re-written my rulebook a dozen times...).  It'll click shortly, I'm sure.  I think BOTS is just complicated enough that it has a few parts which take a moment to comprehend.  As I said in my first review, I got a little lost and abandoned it on my first go, because I was playing with my brother who isn't much of a gamer and I didn't want to bug him figuring it out.  Once I got together with my best friend (huge gamer) we sat down...read it together...played our first match slowly, and it was quite easy to replicate.

So, the game takes a little extra time - big deal.  It's great. 

[Furt]

One question that came up for us, and I may have missed this in the rules, but my Murmillo opponent lost his shield in turn 3, before the end.  He had already lost 2 Shield Fatigue tokens, but what of the rest?  Did he remove one at the end of Turn 3 for holding the shield in that turn for any length of time, or would he have had to hold it till the end of the turn to lose the token?  For every turn that he does not have the shield, can he regain a Shield-Fatigue token from 'resting'?  

Not sure what you mean exactly by the "2 Shield Fatigue tokens". Do you mean the "hourglass" tokens? If so, theoretically that means that his shield was about to start becoming a bother at the end of turn 3, but because he lost his shield, he no longer needed to worry.

If a gladiator drops, or has a fatiguing shield broken, he immediately loses any penalties for carrying it i.e. he removes the fatiguing shield counter.

Also, fatigue only ever comes into play during the Fatigue & Bleeding Phase.

Out of curiosity, how long do your matches usually last?

It really is variable but I would agree between 3-4 turns sounds average. In saying that I have had titanic matches stretching into 7-8 turns and a few that have even ended abruptly in turn 1.

While playing with stock standard Prowess 3 gladiators, I have found the tendency for the matches to stretch on a bit. When you match gladiators with varying and higher attributes although, like those found in a campaign game, things heat up quicker and I've found these games to be much more decisive.

In our 2 player campaign game we manage to complete 4 matches and all the campaign stuff in about 4 hours, which is pretty reasonable.

I've also noticed that until his spear breaks, the Hoplomachus is pretty tough to beat.  The Threax is good against them only if they score a hit on a zero success attack.

I recall reading that historically a Hoplomachus may have fought without his spear against the Thraex, indicating a pretty poor match. I tend to try and avoid matching my thraex against my opponent's Hoplomachus if I can. A murmillo tends to do much better against the Hoplomachi, and I find them almost reluctant to defend with their spear if they are carrying a Skull or two, in fear that they will loose the spear altogether. Thraexs tend to be "showy", causing lots of small irritating wounds that tend to wear an opponent down over time.

I think one of the great things about BOTS is the fact that matches are never identical.  I've had a few matches which resulted in a death within 3-4 rounds, and others which have taken maybe an hour or more to decide between two gladiators (due to great cunning and a non-insubstantial amount of luck).

I agree that the matches can produce very surprising and varied results. We have had a gladiator killed instantly with a lucky chest wound and matches that should be over quickly, stretch on for many rounds.

I also like the fact that matches do not result in a gladiator death often. In 4 campaign turns we have only had 4 actual gladiator deaths, which I feel is fairly realistic.

Thanks all for your support and interest still.

[Watts]

I have a large Hotz mat I use, and the gladiators begin 10 squares apart.  In rounds, I'd say 3-4 rounds and it's decisive.  I've also noticed that until his spear breaks, the Hoplomachus is pretty tough to beat.  The Threax is good against them only if they score a hit on a zero success attack.

How about yourself?

Our games have been going a bit longer but we've been using stock gladiators which might explain things as Furt pointed out.

We are about to start a 3 person campaign. One of my opponents managed to get a Skill 5, Strength 4 Murmillo, so that might make the matches a bit shorter... 

[Eithriall]

Hi guys,

It's my first post here and i've decided to join because of this great thread. I like boardgames, wargames, etc...and i like the roman history (and especially gladiatorial combats).

I've been searching for a long time (ages ?) a good gladiator game (man vs man) which can balance (almost) « historical respect » and fun. And, of course, can preserve a tactical way with some hard decisions to make and a drop of chance.

After reading cautiously this thread and Mr FURT's blog, and because i've never found a game that very pleased me,   so...here i am !

What i've already seen here looks pretty good   (awesome?!). The artwork is just amazing (yeah this « mosaic effect »!) and the game mechanisms, with the dice rolls system, the recipe i've been waiting for so long (and I want to taste it).

Have you plans to release a pro game with perhaps a KS campaign ?

...and i do to apologize for my english writing  


So, as it is a game in development (but what a game !), i want to do some remarks and perhaps ask some questions (i hope not hurtful or tasteless) :

- I've seen in the fighters description the use of latin real names, but only a few of 'em (scutum, gladius...). Why not use latin for all the gladiators armaturea ?

Galea (helmet), ocrea (greave) and fascia (protective band of leather that protected the leg below the knee and provided padding below a greave), subligaculum (loincloth) and balteus (large belt), manica (arm padding of wrapped cloth and leather), reta (fishnet), galerus (the distinctive metal shoulder-guard of a retiarius), hasta (spear), fascina (trident), etc...

- I've seen class (heavy, light...) on the gladiator cards but unless it's needed by the rules, such weight categories never exist in gladiatorial fights. Only shield categories. Fighters with large shield (scutarii – Murmillo, Secutor), fighters with small shields (parmularii – Threax, Hoplomachus) and fighters without shield (like the retiarus).

- It seems in some playtests that fighters are killed in action really often (but it's only a feeling). Don't forget it was forbidden to kill directly your opponent (unless by accident). You have to do you best (not too fast, but not too long either) with your fighting skills to wound and tire him until he gives up and begs for mercy (missio). A referee (suma rudis), and his help (secunda rudis) were present to attend to the respect of the rules.

I've other things to mention but i dont' want to do a long post, so i'll be back...

[Eithriall]

I've managed quite a fair bit of play testing on my "Blood on the Sands" gladiator rules in the last fortnight (…) One was with "Barcias the Babykiller" a Damnatio ad gladium gladiator, destined to be put to death the first time he fails to win and the other was with an unnamed retiarius whose opponent  eventually submitted through exhaustion.

I'm not sure it's the good definition, because «damnatio ad gladium» means for a condemned to death to be killed by a gladiator (acting just like a executioner) and «damnatio at ludum gladiatorium» means for a condemned to death to be train (a little) in a ludus and to fight a real trained gladiator (with, of course, no chance to survive).

I'll be back...

[Furt]

Firstly, welcome Eithriall to LAF.

Secondly, it has been a little quiet around here concerning Blood on the Sands lately, so I thought this a good opportunity to explain that things are still happening behind the scenes. A few others and myself continue to playtest BotS, ironing out the last creases in the rules. As for when the game will be finished and available, I hope to have some answers and direction on that in the near future. Thanks to those still interested in the game and those who continue to contact me.

Eithriall, thanks for taking the time to join and comment. Your insight and thoughts of what you'd expect from a gladiator game is appreciated. Please keep your questions coming.

I've been searching for a long time (ages ?) a good gladiator game (man vs man) which can balance (almost) « historical respect » and fun. And, of course, can preserve a tactical way with some hard decisions to make and a drop of chance.

After reading cautiously this thread and Mr FURT's blog, and because i've never found a game that very pleased me,   so...here i am !

The very reason I wrote a game myself - most gladiator games I have played left me feeling unsatisfied that I just fought a gladiatorial combat. I believe Bots accomplishes all these things.

What i've already seen here looks pretty good   (awesome?!). The artwork is just amazing (yeah this « mosaic effect »!) and the game mechanisms, with the dice rolls system, the recipe i've been waiting for so long (and I want to taste it).

Dr. Mathias has done an AMAZING job with the art. I believe BotS would lose most of it's visual appeal without his talented skills.

Have you plans to release a pro game with perhaps a KS campaign ?

Yes I do plan to publish the game and have considered KS, but I don't think it is the way I will go.

I have been considering options lately and have began discussing BotS future with some other parties, but more on that hopefully soonish...

...and i do to apologize for my english writing  

So, as it is a game in development (but what a game !), i want to do some remarks and perhaps ask some questions (i hope not hurtful or tasteless) :

Ask away, and your English is fine, probably better than mine. 

- I've seen in the fighters description the use of latin real names, but only a few of 'em (scutum, gladius...). Why not use latin for all the gladiators armaturea ?

Galea (helmet), ocrea (greave) and fascia (protective band of leather that protected the leg below the knee and provided padding below a greave), subligaculum (loincloth) and balteus (large belt), manica (arm padding of wrapped cloth and leather), reta (fishnet), galerus (the distinctive metal shoulder-guard of a retiarius), hasta (spear), fascina (trident), etc...

I am aware of course of the Latin names for gladiator weapons/shields and equipment. I am far from a capable speaker/reader of Latin and would assume the majority of players are in the same boat. What I have done is included the Latin term when no better English option exists ie gladius, sica, scutum, parma. Otherwise "trident" is used instead of "fascina" or "dagger" instead of "pugio". I have used an equivalent description for the armour pieces and listed their Latin terms in brackets ie arm guard (manica).

- I've seen class (heavy, light...) on the gladiator cards but unless it's needed by the rules, such weight categories never exist in gladiatorial fights. Only shield categories. Fighters with large shield (scutarii – Murmillo, Secutor), fighters with small shields (parmularii – Threax, Hoplomachus) and fighters without shield (like the retiarus).

The terms heavy and light are really game terms only and help to differentiate a difference in the types of gladiators. No room existed for three "classes" of gladiators in the rules, so opted for 2, large heavy shield and armored gladiators, versus small shield and little armored gladiators.

- It seems in some playtests that fighters are killed in action really often (but it's only a feeling). Don't forget it was forbidden to kill directly your opponent (unless by accident). You have to do you best (not too fast, but not too long either) with your fighting skills to wound and tire him until he gives up and begs for mercy (missio). A referee (suma rudis), and his help (secunda rudis) were present to attend to the respect of the rules.

On the contrary, gladiators are rarely killed "instantly" in BotS. Most deaths result in the decision from the crowd/editor to spare the gladiator when asking for missio. In my own campaign game (currently at 6 turns and a total of 24 individual bouts) only 3 gladiators have been killed outright by their opponent in the arena and on average only 1 in 4 gladiators have been sentenced to die by the crowd. If a gladiator falls prone even, and his opponent delivers a decent enough attack, the match will be called and missio must be asked for. I think these results are close to historically accurate, as best as they can be. Gladiators certainly aren't over dieing in BotS.

Again thanks for your interest Eithriall. Please keep the questions coming. I don't think you will be disappointed by BotS, if you are seeking a "realistic" simulation of a man on man gladiatorial combat. I would let you playtest the rules yourself, but at this late stage of the game, that ship has sailed unfortunately mate...

[Furt]

I'm not sure it's the good definition, because «damnatio ad gladium» means for a condemned to death to be killed by a gladiator (acting just like a executioner) and «damnatio at ludum gladiatorium» means for a condemned to death to be train (a little) in a ludus and to fight a real trained gladiator (with, of course, no chance to survive).

I'll be back...

In my research I found 'damnati ad gladium' to mean they were condemned to death either by execution by sword or to fight until dead as a gladiator. I have ran with "to fight until dead as a gladiator" and interpreted it to mean the gladiator will fight as normal, but will never be spared (granted missio). It is purely a Trait to spice up the game and may well not be how they functioned historically.

I could just as easily rename them damnatio at ludum gladiatorium.

[Malamute]

Glad to see you're still working on it Frank. We got a bit side tracked by Dr De'Ath's Little Lead Adventures on Mars and Texas, but shall return to Rome soon hopefully to continue our campaign.