Red Star Miniatures' 28mm French Indochina Range

[Arlequín]

But I wonder if paras would have had their own organization tables, dissimilar from ordinary infantry.

As I understand it, they had larger sections of 15 men, on paper at least, but given the manpower shortages the French faced, the paper organisation was a bit removed from reality in any case.

So what rules will people be using for these? How could you modify say, FNG, to give it a French rather than an American flavor, or is the period basically just the same Vietnam War with a different skin and fewer weapons options? What motivates you to want to play this period rather than The US Vietnam war other than Paul's amazing sculpts?  

FNG works for some aspects, but the guerilla war phase was largely over by 1949. The Viet Minh were a conventional army, albeit lacking armour and air support, pretty much like the NVA and a world apart from the later VC. Any WW2 rules would work fine to my mind, with some allowance for recoilless weapons, or indeed Force on Force, or any other 'modern' rule set.

Juan's 'Cunning Viet Minh' I have my doubts about though, unless you count timing your second attack wave to coincide with the French being in the process of reloading, after mowing down the first wave. We have stereotypes of inept, but brave French and relentless hordes of fearless Viet Minh, but I suspect that both sides had a range of abilities and capabilities and after all the French didn't lose every battle.

As for motivation, there being no Americans is one...  

Seriously though, it's the even capabilities of the opposite forces, somewhat a case of quantity versus quality if you like, but without the overwhelming fire and air support of the later 'American' war. All the toys are also available, thanks to the popularity of WW2 gaming, it's just been waiting for the figures and now they are here.

The two wars are similar, but different and as it isn't a case of one or the other, playing both can be interesting and quite cheap terrain-wise.

[huevans]

Yes, the later American period of the war features extravagant US equipment and resources. The French have air power, but it's limited to WW2 era assets. No Phantoms and Thuds with massive payloads. And the French have a few light tanks and half-tracks. Nothing overwhelming. And the VM have the advantage of largely controlling the population and the surrounding terrain and choosing when and where to fight. A colonial war that is close to equally balanced, for once.

Carlos, what specific Osprey are you referring to?

[carlos marighela]

The Elite on Foreign Legion Paratoops has the BEP and REP organisations. The MAA on the Algerian War has general battalion TO&E for the paras.

[Poiter50]

Carlos, this cries out for you to write an FoF supplement. 

Company B do some 28mm Pacific gear that would suit the semi amphib nature of some IndoChine/Vietnam style ops.

[carlos marighela]

You're probably right. I've read maybe a dozen books on the topic(s) which seems about double what is required to write an FoF supplement. 

OK that was unfair, they're a decent set of rules but hardly essays in scholarly research, which, after all, is not what they are intended to be.

[huevans]

http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/TOandEs/files/Indo%20-%20china%20wars%20/

Thanks, Carlos. I also got some info from the files section in the above Yahoo group.

The division of the platoon into 2 large 12-15 man squads is interesting. I would have thought that the trend during and after WW2 would be to universal utilization of the triangular structure and 3 equal sections in each platoon with an inter changeable role. 2 large sections with one designated for maneuver and the other for fire support is more suggestive of the 1920's or 1930's.

I am guessing that the VM structure was triangular and based on the Soviet late WW2 model?

[Juan]

I am reading the Osprey MAA number 322, "The French Indochina War (1946-54)", that has some information about OOB and interesting information about uniforms and equipments.
About a rulebook, "FoF" can be very useful for this conflict but I´m thinking to use "Charlie don´t Surf" (a company level parachute assault...) with some modifications.

[Arlequín]

The division of the platoon into 2 large 12-15 man squads is interesting. I would have thought that the trend during and after WW2 would be to universal utilization of the triangular structure and 3 equal sections in each platoon with an inter changeable role. 2 large sections with one designated for maneuver and the other for fire support is more suggestive of the 1920's or 1930's.

Not quite correct to my mind... pre-WW2 tends towards four sections (Britain, Germany and iirc France), or two sections split into half sections (Italy) or thirds (Spain). All of these sections were in the region of 12 to 16 (or more in the case of Spain) men, before everyone pretty much settled on the now traditional three sections of 10 to 12 men just before, or during WW2. The British moved to three sections of 8 men because of manpower shortages and wage costs in the mid-thirties (but upped this up to 10 men after Dunkirk). Most other countries did the same, for various reasons not long after Britain (except Italy and Spain iirc).  

The 'two section' model, if I have this right, was something the Commandos, U.S. Rangers and similar units, went for, although once more they often split these into two sub-sections. In conventional forces, a platoon's third section acts as a reserve for the other two and given the nature of 'Commando' tactics, a reserve was felt to be a pointless waste of manpower and guns, which could be better used in the surprise assaults they relied on. If Commandos needed a reserve, they were already in deep shit.

Why the French paras went for two sections, I have no idea, other than perhaps it had something to do with the amount of men and kit which could be transported by the least number of aircraft and without splitting sub-units between them perhaps? Two Ju52 or C-47 could carry a two-section platoon, with the platoon HQ (sensibly) split between them, without wasting any space.

[carlos marighela]

They went for it in Indochina  principally to preserve and best utilise their pool of experienced junior leaders.

Have a look at the first link I provided. Do bear in mind that along with a reduction from three squads to two per platoon, the infantry company in these active theatres went from three platoons to four. Four platoons by 2 squad leaders (sous officers) is a saving of one over three platoons of three squads.

The Algerian War era  Type 107 battalion  is an interesting organisation at all levels but especially at the platoon level. The platoon was bifurcated into two groups, essentially fire support and assault. Beyond this the fire support element was split into two machine gun teams and the assault group into three equal assault teams. At the platoon level there was a further command element which usually included a bazooka team. Quite a flexible organisation actually and for students of later COIN organisations, like the Portuguese in Africa, it's vaguely familiar. No surprise the Portuguese studied French experinece and organisation as the French were at the time considered the masters of COIN.

[Arlequín]

They went for it in Indochina  principally to preserve and best utilise their pool of experienced junior leaders.

Have a look at the first link I provided. Do bear in mind that along with a reduction from three squads to two per platoon, the infantry company in these active theatres went from three platoons to four. Four platoons by 2 squad leaders (sous officers) is a saving of one over three platoons of three squads.

... with the notional 'free' NCO being the most experienced and who could handle a two-section platoon comfortably, thus also reducing the shortage of officers? That works for me.

 

[Chuckaroobob]

I'll be using "Disposable Heroes" from Iron Ivan.  They are my fav for everything from WW1 to Moderns.

[huevans]

I'm working my way thru Windrow's The Last Valley and have reached the part where he writes about the tribal Meo partisans hunting Viet Minh heads. Hmmmmm....... I'd buy them, if they were available. Of course, with the obligatory French "advisor" to direct their activities.

[Roustam]

Outstanding figures and the various heads will provide a lot of options.
I recommend the following titles:
"La Legion Etrangere en Indochine 1946-1956" by Raymond Guyader, Heimdal.
"Les Paras Francais en Indochine 1945-1954" by Eric Adam and Patrice Pivette, H&C
"Les Paras Francaise en Algerie  1954-1962" by Eric Adam and Patrice Pivette, H&C

The photographs from the above are sure to inspire us for conversions, etc.

And finally; "The Last valley" by Martin Windrow, Da Capo Press

Russ

[grant]

Oh and guys, if you are listening, some head variants in Bigeard caps and berets would be nice for those of us who want to fight Algeria.

I agree. Just watched a fantastic subtitled film about Algeria. It was on Netflix, I was pleasantly surprised. Great ending, too.

[Paul Hicks]

Bigeard caps and bush hats done will be sent to the caster on Friday.