Is Malifaux broken?

[Vermis]

The host of one of my gaming groups is a big Malifaux fan and a 'henchman' for Wyrd Miniatures. The rest of us in the group joined in his interest and got our own crews and models, and I think the game does have a neat set of core mechanics.

The problem is, it's the biggest pile of beardy, broken, unbalanced crud.

At least, that's my point of view. Certainly not the same as anyone I've played against. But at the beginning, with the frame of mind that 40K was too weighed down with special character and unit rules, and that simpler was better, the novel's-worth of text in each Malifaux model's rulecard made me a bit suspicious. And while I admit my liking of tactical games outweighs my actual ability with them, I'm not entirely sure that's the only reason I've taken a pasting in every friendly and mini-tourney game I've played, and I'm not totally convinced Malifaux deserves the 'tactical' reputation it has.

Sour grapes? I dunno. Like I say, players around me love it. I played in a small 6-player tourney today and some of the newer guys raved about how hooked they were. But in my first game there, half my crew died in one turn and I couldn't lift a finger to prevent it. This wasn't unusual. At least not for me.

I'm sorry to say this about a game of toy soldiers, but it's starting to drive me nuts. I don't mind losing (not too much) and I've had some good times with other wargames and board games where I lost, but few of them seemed as hopeless and helpless as my games of Malifaux.

I normally use a guild construct crew with C. Hoffman as a master. Contains some big scary things like the guardian and the hunter, which usually die like flies. Things went a little better in a game a few weeks ago (my first draw) and with a couple of new minis and a read of the pullmyfinger wiki I thought I was heading in the right direction.
Then Hoffman, my guardian, and my peacekeeper were charged by Mei-Feng, a rail worker, and a rail golem, respectively. My toughest crew members, with 9-10 wounds each, armour 2 on the constructs, and defence buffs on Hoffman. All three died straight away. That was the game utterly lost before I accomplished anything.  Even the smallest objective.

I was told I should've played more cleverly, thought more tactically.  Any Malifaux players on LAF, I ask sincerely and expecting an answer: what on earth kind of tactic can I use when melee monsters like Mei-Feng or the rail golem leap across half the board to smack my crew in the face!? What kind of cunning tactical acumen does it take to launch those two in an attack like that?

The golem vs. peacekeeper duel particularly smarts. (though the 5pt rail worker wasting my guardian in single combat comes close) Both 9pt constructs, though one needs to use up resources to stay at it's baseline stats (mine), and one generates it's own resources to add to it's baseline. Bit of a grumpy simplification, but does it seem balanced for the points cost?

Other players see tactics and synergy where I see imbalance and power creep. Whenever I try to play along with tactics and synergy, it gets snuffed out with barely any effort by some card-heavy murder-beast. What do you think of the game? Am I way off the mark? I'd honestly like to be convinced of that, and told where I'm going wrong.

[Blackwolf]

Don't know about the game,the cards look bloody fiddly,I toss them out and use my own rules or others I buy Malifaux for the figures

[Gibby]

I loved it at first, the figures, the art, the fluff and the atmosphere; all was perfect. Really enjoyed the game. Then they started bringing out tons of new stuff every month, and it was getting more Steampunky. Then they switched to some horrific plastic and began using 3D sculpting, which brings about the cartoony, smooth and characterless sculpts we see from Games Workshop etc. So I sold all my Malifaux stuff and lamented its destruction. Those who love it though, love it fanatically still.

[Van-Helsing]

I'm the same as Gibby, I really liked it TO BEGIN WITH - but like Vermis (I didn't however get so readily slaughtered, I found it easy to beat other people) I saw the "flaws" in the Game.

Winning too easily is the same as losing too often for me, so I lost interest quite quickly and sold up.

[fear_the_squirrels]

Guild are, arguably, the worst faction in Malifaux.  They are slow in a movement is king game, and the high stone models don't really hold up against other high stone models from other factions, though I haven't read the newest book where this is supposed to be turning around.  It also, to me at least, has the same issue with most combo based games:  You have to learn everything about everyone to get over that beginner lump.  The interaction chains are what makes or breaks each side.  Dealing with those chains means you have to know where on that chain is the weak link, which may not be readily apparent. 

-TOC

[Tordenskjold]

I have the same feeling. I'm playing in a local community which has friendly gamers, great atmosphere and a lot of enthusiasm, but somehow this just can't distract me from the fact that a lot of models, particluar the "older" ones from the first book, are horribly outmatched by the newer models. Especially some of the new Ten Thunders models are a showcase example of newer models just getting better than older models. I've played against Mai Feng, and also a crew of the new ghosts from book 4 - Mai Feng I can live with, but the spirits from the newest book are just ridiculously overpowered compared to the other models. As has been mentioned, Malifaux is broken in the way that one particluar element of the game, movement, is the king that wins or loses a game. I play Von Schill as a master with a freikorps/outcast crew, and my tactics are usually centered around the ultra mobile Von Schill as the main element, with other models in support roles. It just doesn't make sense to play up any other element than mobility in Malifaux.

What really made the cup overflow for me was the Avatars. For 2SS you get a new master so extremely much better than the original that no non-avatar master stand a chance against it. Some of the people I play with insist that Avatars are "different, no better", but given the number of games I've seen won easily by avatar masters I'll have to disagree. The Viktorias and Pandora might be the worst examples.

If you want to keep playing without getting too frustrated by constant losses I'd recommend another faction. As has been said The Guild might be the weakest faction at the moment. This has been somehow remedied in the new book, but sadly only by giving The Guild some new models that are even more overpowered than the other factions' models. It is a patchwork solution, and one that doesn't remove the undelrying problems of the game.

[Dolmot]

I have enough Malifaux minis for a small team, but essentially they're doubling for other games with little use in their original purpose. I've only played a game or two against another beginner so no particularly hard feelings concerning my track record.

The primary problem is the whole nature of these games. It already happened with Warmachine. Initially I thought it would be fun to pick up some steampunk stuff and then...um...play games. Unfortunately, 95 times out of 100 when I hear people discussing these games, it goes like "If I take caster_x and combine it with this, this and this, I get flight, 3+ save and thirty seven attacks at strength twenty" and so on. Or ranting about the previously mentioned combo. There's at least a whole week of metagaming and list tweaking, whereafter the game looks like this. Nowadays when I spot signs of this, I just gently moonwalk away.

I don't have the time for that. Or put another way, I prefer spending my hobby time on building and painting actual stuff which lasts and looks good to everyone. There was a time when I had fun memorising zillions of special rules and fiddling with options, but those days are gone. In hindsight, it didn't feel like an accomplishment, and after a few new releases my knowledge was completely outdated. It wasn't even that fun to win games by announcing a killer combo and an obscure special rule from a minor publication. (OK, maybe it was but not any more.) It's selfish pleasure, which may only bring enjoyment to an opponent who's looking for exactly the same challenge. Painting and terrain often become the first casualties. They don't give you five extra attacks thus they have the lowest priority.

However, I understand that these games have their place, because:
1) The special rule, unit combo and character variant merry-go-round provides a solid revenue model.
2) There's genuine request for them by people who like winning toy soldier games with certain skills. (You decide whether they count as tactics.)

But if a wall of text is telling me what my super boss can do, and then I'm supposed to buy the best combo troops (even if I don't like the models), I think the game is playing me, not the other way around.

Let's face it. That's how character-based games must work if the company wants to maintain a solid business model. Play them if you enjoy them, but don't expect much improvement. It's better to churn out new stuff broken in new ways rather than to create a stable environment. For example, Blood Bowl was a great game which got effectively retired because you could complete a team with <20 models and then just keep playing without any new purchases. It's nice but it doesn't generate enough revenue.

Ramble over. I don't know if it helped but thank you anyway for your time if you finished this.

[Van-Helsing]

When the rules require endless "combos" to make models truly effective, thats just clever marketing

[rob_alderman]

Yeah, I know for my Gremlins, I have ended up buying several 'combos'. 

[Kitsune]

I loved it at first, the figures, the art, the fluff and the atmosphere; all was perfect. Really enjoyed the game. Then they started bringing out tons of new stuff every month, and it was getting more Steampunky. Then they switched to some horrific plastic and began using 3D sculpting, which brings about the cartoony, smooth and characterless sculpts we see from Games Workshop etc. So I sold all my Malifaux stuff and lamented its destruction. Those who love it though, love it fanatically still.

Exactly the same as me, except I kept one faction (Arcanists) so that I could keep my hand in the game.

What Malifaux needs at the moment is a 2.0 revision to come out and tidy it up more than anything. But that'll not happen as Wyrd are on a crazed "we must release one expansion book each Gencon" yearly update thing - which obviously works for them.

Even the biggest players I know are getting a bit left behind by the updates now. Well, except one.

[Vermis]

Thanks everyone. Comforting to know I'm not entirely incompetent and crazy.

I knew about Malifaux combos and wasn't too happy with them. Too much - as the Lardies say - playing the rules, rather then the game or the 'period'. I tried to weather through my opponents' combos on the table, or pay lip service to that mechanic (tried the 'protect' chain on my constructs) but nothing doing.

I'm not altogether happy about buying the latest or different toys to run the Red Queen's race, either.  I suspected it after the few times I faced the new Ten Thunders crews, but  - same as the combos - thought I could take a few hits on the chin and learn to box clever, stick with one small crew and learn their ins and outs. Looking increasingly unlikely now.

'Movement is king': I get that too! My crew does have a couple of advantages like 'drawn to metal' and 'overprotective', but it's still based on a walk 3 no charge Hoffman who has to be ferried about by that 'drawn to metal' ability, usually by the guardian which is no Mo Farah itself. (Imagine how fast he goes when, like I say, the guardian gets taken out in one attack, early in the game.)
They just can't compete when Mei-Feng does her rail-walking thing (non-Malifaux players: not kidding about leaping across half a table), or when you find out the rail golem can walk and charge in one turn. (nasty surprise last Saturday. "Oh, but once he does that he can't do it again for a while!" Comforting when it's already wiped out a hefty chunk of your crew thanks to it) In the second game I lasted a bit longer, thanks to the player taking pity on me (great feeling ) and leaving the rail golem aside, but still lost the game because the rail workers and Mei-Feng bounced across the table and grabbed all the objectives first.
I also watched part of another game where whatsisface - the neverborn puppet master - killed Mei-Feng because he could pull all his puppets in sharpish to crowd her. I didn't fancy facing that crew, simply because of that movement advantage.

I didn't mean to add so much (more) bitter grumbling to this post, but that's the way I feel about the game right now. And if there's one message I want to convey with all of it, it's this:

I hate Mei-Feng.

 

[fear_the_squirrels]

What Malifaux needs at the moment is a 2.0 revision to come out and tidy it up more than anything. But that'll not happen as Wyrd are on a crazed "we must release one expansion book each Gencon" yearly update thing - which obviously works for them.

This, I've been painting, not playing on the wait for v2.

 I do believe its more down to the momentum that Malifaux is getting right now, more then the expansion every year as to why 2.0 won't be soon though.  I expect that if they are smart, we'll see a v2.0 when interest starts to die off a bit.

-TOC

[mistercactus]

Not a Hoffman expert, but he has some tricks against the crew you described:

He can copy protect from the guardian (and so can the mobile toolkit iirc) so you can create a chain, putting the wounds on whichever model you want, spreading them around the whole crew.

Override edict will let him control the rail golem for an activation. See how Mei likes getting smacked in the face with an iron girder!

Pick your schemes carefully: I like to keep a watcher out of harm's way for most of the game (use defensive stance when necessary) then fly into the enemy deployment zone last turn to get breakthrough.

Not a fan of the hunter myself. Thing is way to fragile. Keep it in base contact with Hoffman to increase the power of open circuit? Don't think that spell effects constructs though...

Mei needs specific suits to get her triggers off and do her crazy tricks, so with a bad hand she's screwed. Making the Mei player cheat cards in defence means you'll be reducing her chances of pulling off the big moves to hurt you.

Killing off her construct railwalking points will hamper her movement.

Hope some of this will help!

Regards

Ian

[Vermis]

Ta Ian! A couple of points, though...

He can copy protect from the guardian (and so can the mobile toolkit iirc) so you can create a chain, putting the wounds on whichever model you want, spreading them around the whole crew.

I tried to weather through my opponents' combos on the table, or pay lip service to that mechanic (tried the 'protect' chain on my constructs) but nothing doing.

That was my fancy new trick for the tourney. Guardian > Hoffman > toolkit > hunter. I agree that the hunter is fragile - I'd begun to leave it out of games because of that - and hoped the protect chain would help it last longer. Problem is, the guardian, the wound reservoir at the end, with all it's defences and buffs, has almost as much trouble hanging onto it's own wounds. It's like Vectorman falling to bits over and over again:

http://m.youtube.com/index?tab=w1&gl=GB&desktop_uri=%2F%3Fgl%3DGB%26tab%3Dw1#/watch?v=4Z0ovx_-Rpw

What's more, at the end of the day I was given the 'tip' that I was wasting my time casting protect on the hunter when I should run it towards objectives straight away. A strategy that usually ends with it getting jumped on and 'vectormanned'.

Override edict will let him control the rail golem for an activation. See how Mei likes getting smacked in the face with an iron girder!

Did that in the game, right after it stepped on my peacekeeper! Result: no damage whatsoever. She did have to burn up some cards and a soulstone or two, but it didn't stop her from leaping at Hoffman just after, with a red-joker dragon-kick to the face. Overall I couldn't believe the amount of cheats, positive twists and triggers my opponent was getting off in the games. More than my crew. Closest I came was when I thought I got the guardian's df trigger, only to have it cheated away.

I had a watcher in the box set but gave it away because I thought the mini was too ugly! I meant to convert my own proxy but never got around to it. I might hurry it along.

Also, the better game I had a couple of weeks ago was partly down the the fact that I finally read the open circuit spell correctly! For ages I thought nearby constructs suffered extra damage, rather than providing it.

I have a feeling that if I carry on, I might have to (gag) buy another mini or two, get a bit more firepower in the crew to see if I can pick off rail workers at range. Ryle, maybe. I have Rusty Alice, but her gun doesn't seem overly effective.  

[Varangian]

I'm also a Henchman for Wyrd. I think that the rules could use some cleaning up, there are a few language issues that could be fixed to make it make more sense.

With that said, I love the game all in all. I don't think it's broken, I think it's complex, though not overly so (with the needed language adjustments being a separate issue to me), it just balances differently from most games. I play Guild almost exclusively, and have not ever found them to be under strength.

Malifaux is much more of a resource management game than most miniatures games. As you learn to use those resources (your control hand, soulstones, miniature's abilities, and even activations) you become a better player over all. This is what I think really sets the good players off from the really good players, or even helps me hang a little better with the people that beat me consistently.

What the players that are far better than I tell me is that about half of your crew you have "pre-selected" for your Master, about a quarter is to accomplish your goals, and about a quarter to counter your opponent's goals. With the ability to select crews after terrain set up and Strategy determination you have much more control over who you bring to the table, which not everyone likes. I personally love that about the game, though I tend to stick to the Ortegas with a model or two switched out depending on the game. It's definitely not a game for someone that wants to buy one set of miniatures and create a list with those that never changes.

I also really like their plastics, with one exception (Lazarus). The Guild Riflemen really show what can be done to make the material shine. I don't know that I've seen many miniatures that have more depth without having a super cartoony level of detail (such as GW, who admittedly makes beautiful plastics to my mind, just in their very specific style).

As far as Wyrd pushing out a book a year, I think they've done pretty well with them. I don't think it's too much, even with a crazy school and gaming schedule (there to keep me from going crazier with school) I'm able to remain competent enough to continue playing the game without feeling overwhelmed. I think that they're working toward a a V2 rules set, although I do not know for sure. They're really good about not having knee-jerk reactions to needed changes that end up making the game worse, and I'd rather they take their time and do this right rather than push something out that doesn't really work for what we the community feel is needed. I think that the model cards helps that information curve, even if it's printed from a pdf online. I think they're consistently getting better both as game designers and a company, so I give them some more latitude than some others will.

I have to say, I love the card mechanic of the game. I'm at the point where when I play a rare 40K game, or a lot of board games and I roll dice (or a die) I look at it and think "Well, eff this, I have no recourse. I can't affect them, why am I doing this??".