Is Malifaux broken?

[manic _miner]

 Just picked-up the 1.5 rule book today and my first miniature Toshiro the Daimyo.Got more miniatures on order and the new book too.

[Anatoli]

Loved the game initially, picked it up when it was quite new and before it had any expansions. At that point it was a quite fun game and had enough stuff to keep track off. Then Rising Powers came, I bought the book and started tinkering with another crew but at that point the whole concept was starting to fall apart imo.

There was a frustrating and impossible amount of information to keep track off, you had to memorize what you own miniatures which now had 3-5 different skills and traits could do, and then keep track of what every enemy miniature could do - and still it was near impossible to predict half of what was going on due to endless combos which just wore me out. The game stopped being fun, and the errata was shaping up into a book of its own, to keep the game playable you had to hang around the Wyrd forum and keep downloading FAQ/Errata documents.

More new releases, endless streams of new abilities, breaking the previous stuff without rebalancing. I highly doubt that even a fraction of what is released is anywhere near balanced as the game is very advanced and has a ton of modifiers, skills, traits, abilities, conditions that create endless combinations and are bound to give birth to anomalies on the gaming table that  the beta testers didn't foresee or catch before the release.

I also feel that while the initial game had a nice theme, it was a mix of Steampunk, Horror and Western, it became more and more diluted to my distaste. Now the theme of the game is "anything goes" and I just can't be bothered anymore.

Stopped playing it, use my few Malifaux models that I have for other games instead. Not excited about version 2, don't think version 2 will fix many of the problems that derive from the units themselves more than the actual rules. The chance of me buying version 2 is zero.

A good product and idea was completely mismanaged and lost along the way imo  

[Gibby]

I also feel that while the initial game had a nice theme, it was a mix of Steampunk, Horror and Western, it became more and more diluted to my distaste. Not the theme of the game is "anything goes" and I just can't be bothered anymore.

This is what did it for me. I loved the creepiness and slightly quirky style of the setting, but as releases flew out it became more and more silly, with no holds barred on what the universe was about. It started to have a more sci-fi look to it. Bleh.

[Sumatran Rat Monkey]

Also bear in mind that some aspects of the game- killer combos, glass cannons that frontload ridiculous amounts of type-specific damage (i.e., combo X being an ideal blindside for figures that do Y, etc.)- are very likely going to remain, simply because they're the bread & butter of the type of game it is.

Clearly,this is an intentional design decision.

Malifaux, Warmahordes and the like are structurally more akin to CCGs, when you think about it- much more "Magic: the Gathering, with miniatures" than a wargame with unit cards."

Note that, when I say that, I'm referring to the play experience, i.e., game approach, army design, mechanics, and just how you plan out your actions and games, rather than the "buy 400 boosters and hope to randomly get a tournamment legal ultrarare Plague Chipmunk" side of Magic, etc.  As a result, they're not really tactical games- things tend to be decided more by the metagame, rather than by careful tactics and battlefield doctrine.

Also bear in mind that, while it's not a style of game I personally care for (be it cards or miniatures), I'm also not passing judgement and saying it's good or bad, more or less valid, etc.- just that they're not the same kind of game you may be used to.

If it's the play style and game approach that appeals to you, then knock yourself out- our hobbies are supposed to be enjoyable, and it's no more or less relevant than any other form, be it boardgame or Grognard bel Grande!

That's my dos pesos, at least.

- Monk

[Melnibonean]

Loved the game initially, picked it up when it was quite new and before it had any expansions. At that point it was a quite fun game and had enough stuff to keep track off. Then Rising Powers came, I bought the book and started tinkering with another crew but at that point the whole concept was starting to fall apart imo.

There was a frustrating and impossible amount of information to keep track off, you had to memorize what you own miniatures which now had 3-5 different skills and traits could do, and then keep track of what every enemy miniature could do - and still it was near impossible to predict half of what was going on due to endless combos which just wore me out. The game stopped being fun, and the errata was shaping up into a book of its own, to keep the game playable you had to hang around the Wyrd forum and keep downloading FAQ/Errata documents.

More new releases, endless streams of new abilities, breaking the previous stuff without rebalancing. I highly doubt that even a fraction of what is released is anywhere near balanced as the game is very advanced and has a ton of modifiers, skills, traits, abilities, conditions that create endless combinations and are bound to give birth to anomalies on the gaming table that  the beta testers didn't foresee or catch before the release.

I also feel that while the initial game had a nice theme, it was a mix of Steampunk, Horror and Western, it became more and more diluted to my distaste. Now the theme of the game is "anything goes" and I just can't be bothered anymore.

Stopped playing it, use my few Malifaux models that I have for other games instead. Not excited about version 2, don't think version 2 will fix many of the problems that derive from the units themselves more than the actual rules. The chance of me buying version 2 is zero.

A good product and idea was completely mismanaged and lost along the way imo  

Agree 100%.
I loved the game when it first came out. I had about 10 crews amounting to about 10 figures and I was a Henchman. As you say it had a great theme. It was quirky and a little twisted (in a good way). When Rising Powers came out I wasn't impressed and slowly lost interest. It seemed to me that the fun and quirkiness was being leeched out of the game in preference for figure sales and over the top meta gaming.

The original Masters each had great personalities which really added to the game. This went out the window and was replaced by masters with bigger and better abilities and, what seemed to me, very forced and unconvincing background fluff which came second to the new abilities. Some of the new stuff in Rising Powers still had that original feel but it was suppressed by the meta game element.

What was a nice quirky, strange, visually pleasing and, admittedly, not perfect game became a marketing monster and left me cold.

[Vermis]

A further moan.

So Malifaux 2nd edition is out. Some guys from one of my regular groups brought copies of the rulebook for gaming tonight. Beforehand there was some effort to persuade me it had been streamlined and balanced, and maybe it has, but not a lot in my eyes.
I pulled out an ancient, dusty Ramos mini for tonight, 'cos I'd also been rabbitted at that "Ramos is really good now". Again, maybe, but that didn't stop him and his crew getting clobbered - by turn five I had no minis on the table while my opponent had all his, giving him a full free turn to clobber me on points, too. Might have had something to do with the fact that I had a crewful of armoured constructs (with the minis I have, I can field a Hoffman construct crew or a Ramos construct crew) and he had a crewful of killer minis that could ignore armour and deal extra blows on constructs. Okay, I know you don't bring a knife to a gunfight, but it's a bit tricky when all you have is Henckles rather than Hecklers; and to me it shows that the game is still reliant on the listbuilding metagame, deadly special rules, and the offputting "gotta catch 'em all" marketing mentality. I can't focus on and use the minis and themes I want, rather than picking and slotting new masters and crews for each game from a growing and expensive collection. No good.

It was reinforced by another thing from the new release: a plastic box set containing a large monster and some kind of 'wretches', among others (can't find 'em online) that was going onto ebay. I liked the look of the wretches for other potential projects and wondered if I could get in before the were auctioned off. But no, the minis were staying with the box set, and the only way to get them is as part of that $80 box.

Strewth.

(Then there was the 'ladies for hire' box, or something. In every one of 'em the shins alone were longer than the entire torso and head together. They're like mutants.)

Tonight I was motivated by Malifaux - motivated to pull together something like a couple of Ronin buntai to wave about, see if it could distract from the former game a tad. Might already be too late - two of the guys were also trying out Bushido, which from the minis seen online and the one card glanced at tonight (full of stats, arcane symbols, and special rules; and that was just for one peasant) looks almost like Malifaux: Japan Edition. (Or Warsamur 1.6K) I overheard one of the big Malifaux fans  in the group say "I can see the tactical depth" and I could almost feel my heart drop. If it's 'tactical' in the Malifaux sense I can almost guarantee I won't like it, and it could be a wrench to get them onto something more 'boring historical' like Ronin. (If there's going to be a myth & folklore supplement for the latter, it can't come too soon IMO!)

Note to Bushido fans: happy to be proven wrong, BTW!

At this point it's even making me have doubts about the future of my personal hobby. I don't know if I can keep making trips up to Belfast if every 4 out of 5 games is one like blackboard-nails in miniature form to me, and I don't think it's fair to make everyone else play something else whenever I turn up. (Not unless it's something they want to play)  Mini gaming is practically dead up there otherwise. (Unless you count the GW shop, which I don't)
Makes me appreciate the gaming at the Omagh club even more, though that's hanging on by four threads. If the worst happens there, I'm borked!

That went a bit off-topic and weird. It helps, though. Can't whine about my first-world problems on twitter etc.

[Dewbakuk]

Not looked at the new edition yet but to be honest, it sounds more that there is an issue with your opponent than the game. Getting someone to try a game and then taking a list designed to devastate the force you know they're going to use is just a wanky thing to do.

[Vermis]

Thing is, he's not the Wyrd henchman or uberfan badgering me to have a go. He's a little like me in that he's not completely taken with it (though still a lot more enthusiastic than me) and wants to concentrate on one or two masters and crews. It's largely bad luck that his crew consisted of Von Schill, Bishop, Taelor and a bunch of ronin, while mine had Ramos, Howard Langstrom, a metal gamin and three arachnids. Again, the near-random pairing of our two crews, skewed to such a strong 'rock paper scissors' relationship (even Howard was cut to ribbons), makes me wonder about the basic balance of the game.

[Conquistador]

Thing is, he's not the Wyrd henchman or uberfan badgering me to have a go. He's a little like me in that he's not completely taken with it (though still a lot more enthusiastic than me) and wants to concentrate on one or two masters and crews. It's largely bad luck that his crew consisted of Von Schill, Bishop, Taelor and a bunch of ronin, while mine had Ramos, Howard Langstrom, a metal gamin and three arachnids. Again, the near-random pairing of our two crews, skewed to such a strong 'rock paper scissors' relationship (even Howard was cut to ribbons), makes me wonder about the basic balance of the game.

If it makes you feel any better, locally the "big" (as in self proclaimed) historical group trend setters are just showing glimmers of coming out of the "competition" ancients, Aircraft games must be 4D, (okay I exaggerate, 3D,) to reflect 'reality,' "Fire and Fury" ACW (just personally boring,) and micro-managing companies while a Brigade commander mentality.  If it wasn't for a few of their personalities, (most of them are nice people,) and a "half dozen" or so more willing to play a game then recreate a computer simulation on the table top I think I would have abandoned miniatures a few years ago.

Gracias,

Glenn

 

[julesav]

Hi Guys

I think that Malifaux is not 'broken' from Wyrd's point of view because it does exactly what Wyrd want it to do!

Like GW's rules systems it's a mechanism to drive figure sales.  Play balance differences help to push sales of newer, better, more 'broken' figures - but that's just 'marketing'! Thankfully these new iterations of figures cost significantly less than a new WFB or 40K army from GW - so Wyrd retains a 'good value' label - in comparison.

From my experience Malifaux has a very steep learning curve which can be at least partially overcome by extensive research on the relevant wiki - 'Pull My Finger'. Certainly the original starter sets seem 'under-powered' by more recent sets, but that could just be perception of the poor playing owner of a 'Cult of Winter' starter set - that's me!

On the other hand I think it would be a simple matter to change rules to 'Empire of the Dead' or 'In Her Majesty's Name' - which I will be trying in the future. Both of these systems have a much less steep learning curve and imho greater 'pick up and play-ability'! both also have less of a play 'pedigree' and may well turn out to be 'broken' themselves! However, even if playing with my crews is a success using EotD or IHMN, I will miss the very cool card based game mechanisms of 'faux!

Equally M2nd Ed might be the answer?

Just my 2ps worth!

Cheers

Jules

[Henrix]

Note to Bushido fans: happy to be proven wrong, BTW!

I think you should give it a try.

[Major_Gilbear]

Firstly, apologies for this, but:



Ahem, okay then.


I read this with interest, and having finally played a game of M2E Malifaux myself recently, I was interested to know if you'd had any more games yourself since you last posted here Vermis?

I personally noticed that the way the mechanics work has been altered noticeably, albeit subtly. Specifically, there seems to be a lot more modifiers for flipping cards, such that you are often flipping two or more for each activity.

I also noticed that some things (like cover, defensive stance and focused attack) are now much more worthwhile, and combined with flipping more cards noted above, give you back more control of your actions.

Soulstones have been totally revised. They are far more integrated into many actions now, but at the same time are not the trump that they used to be (i.e., you no longer flip additional cards and add the resultant scores together!).

Even Jokers have been tweaked.

In the game I played, we didn't use any upgrade cards either. However, looking through them afterwards, I did see a lot of potential to use the upgrades to tailor a crew one way or another (thus allowing you to field some non-official-theme models usefully). Did you use any upgrade cards in your M2E game?

Given all these changes, and the time that has elapsed since, have you had any more luck fielding a crew that you want and that you can win with?

[Elbows]

I have to say...as a non-Malifaux player just reading this thread the game "sounds" absolutely miserable.  I suppose this is good as it's obviously not intended to appeal to gamers like myself.  It just sounds like an absolutely horrible time.  Then again I'm now to the point where I walk by "tournies" at conventions and shudder.  I guess I'm fortunate that Malifaux minis are bit to Cirque du Soleil for me (and not in a cool way).

Thanks for sharing your thoughts guys.  Forums like this are as good a way to avoid stuff as to learn about new stuff that interests ya! 

[Vermis]

I read this with interest, and having finally played a game of M2E Malifaux myself recently, I was interested to know if you'd had any more games yourself since you last posted here Vermis?

Given all these changes, and the time that has elapsed since, have you had any more luck fielding a crew that you want and that you can win with?

I've had a couple. I've used the new cards for Hoffman and my other minis, plus some of the upgrades. I lost the last game to my henchman friend, although it was apparently a close, hard-fought thing. I still wonder if he was going easy on me though. But while it'll never be my favourite game and still has to rise a few notches to something I like (it's not just my chronic inability - honest) I've mellowed towards it. A bit.

Then tonight I tried cleaning up the mechanical attendant mini I got at Salute, with the typically hair-thin construct joints that fall apart when you show the file to them let alone try to unbend them, and the hatred came flooding back.

[Major_Gilbear]

Then tonight I tried cleaning up the mechanical attendant mini I got at Salute, with the typically hair-thin construct joints that fall apart when you show the file to them let alone try to unbend them, and the hatred came flooding back.

Yeah... I really hate how spindly some parts are, especially given how chunky many of the models are otherwise. I refuse to go anywhere near the Avatar models for a number of similar reasons. 

With the constructs, I simply assume I'll break everything anyway; easier to just cut the models apart and pin them back together with suitable brass rods and tubes. It saves you huge amounts of hassle in the long-run.

Game-wise though, I do find that timing is critical in Malifaux - regardless of edition.

You can be laid low of fluke by with luck, but mostly it's about hard resource assessment and playing to get the VPs. If you have to sacrifice most of your crew, so be it!

I'm not normally such a "ruthless" person though, so I find it easy to get carried away by trying to fight the opposing crew rather than concentrating on the scenario objectives. I also always lament the loss of named characters in my crews (not so much by the unnamed grunts), so getting the job done no matter what can also be hard for me sometimes.

I also noticed that a lot of movement stats have been re-tweaked, Masters all have 3AP now, and that there seemed to be more movement options for crews now. Did you find your crew(s) any faster in game?