Fantasy Wargamers are we MUGS ?

[Vermis]

Fantasy (and also SciFi) figures are overpriced compared to equivalent historical ranges, certainly the sculpting cost, moulding and casting cost and raw materials are not vastly different

Not in my experience, limited as it might be. I'd also call moulding and casting costs into question as well, if certain finer or more complicated details and multiparts are considerations. Particularly if said details result from the more common use of polymer clay (extra moulding step/work) or necessarily result in said multiparts.

[Vermis]

But its mantic...its excrement...and so are the models they produce *remembers giant space rat with dildo drills* Jesus Christ, who on earth would ever design or purchase the rubbish they make and actually believe it to be a quality item?

Well then, they should still fit quite nicely with your suggestion of using historical minis.

[King Tiger]

Well then, they should still fit quite nicely with your suggestion of using historical minis.

So your trying to say in a fantasy world (where anything is possible and nothing is set in stone) it is impossible and therefore utterly silly to have a fantasy army based off Roman leggionaires?, or a fantasy army based off rennaisance or medieval troops?, or maybe even Korean and samurai models from Perry?........get a grip.

Mantic produces a product based solely on a hobbyists hatred for GW, the quality of the systems and models they produce is poor, it is of such a low quality that allot of stockists, retailers and gamers refuse to offer it even pinch of acknowledgment, unfortunately few are willing to spend enough on this poor excuse of a product to keep it going when it has no hope of continuing (thankfully).

To suggest using imagination to produce a fantasy army from an historical range of models would "fit in" with mantics garbage idea of a product is somehow similar in its idea, boggles the mind beyond belief.

[Captain Blood]

Calm, calm, calm...



Personally I think it's just a culture that's developed over time. It's just accepted - it's okay to charge stupid amounts of money for fantasy figures. It's not okay to charge similar sums of money for historical figures. Fantasy gamers don't mind spending stupid amounts of money on a figure or two, because they have been conditioned by custom and practice to expect to pay through the nose for their special toys. Historical gamers won't, because they haven't been conditioned in this way (despite the attempts of a few manufacturers to try it).

My wife and I go to the same unisex hairdressers. I get charged ten pounds for my haircut because I'm a man. My wife gets charged 25 pounds for her haircut because she's a woman. Is her hair any more difficult to cut than mine? No. Does it take any longer? No (she's got quite short hair ). It's just that everyone knows women's hair styling is an expensive business and men's generally isn't. I wouldn't dream of paying 25 quid for the same haircut I get for a tenner. But to her, a haircut for 25 quid is better than the 40 quid she used to pay at her previous ladies-only salon...
It's the same principle. People pay through the nose for fantasy figures 'because that's the way it is'. Over a long period, that part of the miniatures industry has somehow succeeded in attaching a premium price tag to what they do - even though it may not necessarily always be for a premium product.

[Gibby]

They don't do a fantasy system, hence why I suggested hail Caesar
But the Romans could be used for a fantasy force based off them, or the barbarians.

Dunno why you'd try to provoke a negative response perhaps in a poor attempt of starting me off, I don't hate warlord entirely, I have made this very clear, I just hate stupid releases, prices and decisions.

Sorry mate, I wasn't trying to start anything, I have better things to do. The laughing smiley and the wink was my attempt to indicate it was a bit of banter as most Warlord threads see you complaining about the pricing decisions, but here you're telling someone "tough luck, deal with it"

Alas. Different humours I suppose.

[robh]

Not in my experience, limited as it might be. I'd also call moulding and casting costs into question as well, if certain finer or more complicated details and multiparts are considerations. Particularly if said details result from the more common use of polymer clay (extra moulding step/work) or necessarily result in said multiparts.

I am not convinced by the finer or complicated detail argument. I think 28/32mm Inca/Aztec clan warriors, Samurai or Napoleonic Hussars in full dress are as complicated and detailed as any similar sized fantasy figures and far more so than most. Yet they sell for a fraction of the price of even a basic Fantasy piece.

[voltan]

A lot of historical sculpting is done as dolly work deliberatly to keep the price down, where as fantasy are usually full sculpts. (Major generalisation, may not apply to all companies or occasions when the red mist has descended )

[Vermis]

Calm, calm, calm...



Personally I think it's just a culture that's developed over time. It's just accepted - it's okay to charge stupid amounts of money for fantasy figures. It's not okay to charge similar sums of money for historical figures. Fantasy gamers don't mind spending stupid amounts of money on a figure or two, because they have been conditioned by custom and practice to expect to pay through the nose for their special toys. Historical gamers won't, because they haven't been conditioned in this way (despite the attempts of a few manufacturers to try it).

'Calm calm' immediately followed by 'all you fantasy gamers are brainwashed'? Not going to work either way, I think. 

[Captain Blood]

I was saying 'calm calm, calm' because one or two people on this thread were starting to get a bit snippy with each other. If you want the thread to stay open, it needs to stay polite.

Also, I didn't say 'all you fantasy gamers are brainwashed' at all. My point was that it has simply become the norm for fantasy figures to command high prices, in a way that it has not become the norm for (most) historical figures. It's just the way it has grown to be over a long period of time. Nothing to do with brainwashing - just a cultural norm.

[redzed]

show me the figure sculptor who earns the average wage?

show me the sculptor who earns minimum wage or less?  (the vast majority)

this is a part-time business with full time hours (and in a lot of cases full time hours are 80+ a week)

People who claim of being ripped off, please let us know your job and how much you get.

I want a BMW but guess what?  yep BMW are ripping me off by charging me more than I'm willing to pay.

[PatrickWR]

Between auctions, game convention flea markets and boards like this, I rarely pay more than $1-$2 for metal fantasy figures anymore. Then again, my tastes don't tend toward the newest, sexiest model from premium companies.

[Monster]

There are plenty of cheap fantasy miniatures out they but they tend to be older ranges I think.

I don't think the cost of fantasy miniatures is unreasonable though. They're a luxury item after all and unlike historical figures they tend to be individuals rather than identical troopers.  I really doubt that they don't sell in big enough volumes for the makers to get any economies of scale. Besides think of all the costs that go in to making and selling a miniature - or anything else! Off the top of my head, and thinking about a professional company:
-Sales tax, currently 20% in the UK..
-cost of metal/plastic
-Cost of moulds
-Labour of casting the figure
-labour of sculpting the figure
-Distribution to supplier and retailer
-Profit for supplier and retailer
-Cost of admin and IT infrastucure including a web presence
-Rent on office and factory space
-Company tax
-Bank fees

I'm sure the list could go on but you get the idea.

Also, say that you sell a figure for £4 and make a £1 profit. I suspect that's optimistic but it will work for now. You would need to sell 21,00 such figures to earn the typical UK wage and you would lose some of that in tax and national insurance. That's an awful lot of figures for a small company, and I think that once you leave aside the big names most companies are small. So, personally, no, I don't think we're mugs. 

[workerBee]

A lot of historical sculpting is done as dolly work deliberatly to keep the price down, where as fantasy are usually full sculpts. (Major generalisation, may not apply to all companies or occasions when the red mist has descended )

So why not undercut the competition and do this for Fantasy figures?

And what about the third leg of war gaming triads?  Science Fiction.

How do SF figures compare to Fantasy and Historical figures?

Gracias,

Glenn

[workerBee]

<snip> Off the top of my head, and thinking about a professional company:
-Sales tax, currently 20% in the UK..
-cost of metal/plastic
-Cost of moulds
-Labour of casting the figure
-labour of sculpting the figure
-Distribution to supplier and retailer
-Profit for supplier and retailer
-Cost of admin and IT infrastucure including a web presence
-Rent on office and factory space
-Company tax
-Bank fees

All of these are the same for fantasy figures and Historical figures.  So that shouldn't explain the difference in costing.

Yikes, 20%?  Is that the dreaded VAT that I get to bypass as an American?

Well, if the company tries to pass it along I don't buy from them... the companies I have dealt with recently (last year) made a point to let me know I wasn't paying VAT because I as outside the UK/European market.  I asked or saw the practice mentioned on the website...

Gracias,

Glenn

[workerBee]

I just noticed lawnranger started this thread and has not participated since.  

Or did I just miss his contributing comments?   

Hmm?  

Gracias,

Glenn