Max's Mortimer's Cross thread

[max]

As those who have read my last post will know, i'm going to make the armies for the Battle of Mortimer's Cross.
So far it's in research stages but i'm getting the orders of battle together (not 100% exact but then again what ever is in history!?!) but until then i shall present to you my first two battle specific figures. Gallowglaich from Ormond's battle.





Both are Perry conversions, will facial hair and mail 'capes', and the left hand man wears a long mail hauberk.

[commissarmoody]

roughly the same idea I had for making some Galloglass. 

[max]

I used that thread for inspiration, and also the one about the Irish during the 15th century. Rather handy!

[Captain Blood]

Nice conversions Max. Well done 

[Arlequín]

Yes, they look the part for my money anyway. 

[max]

Right, i've done a 1st draft for the armies, using the Dux Bellorum rules so everything in bases.
I've decided around 200 men a base, for a fully write up about my choices you can visit my blog.

The Lancastrians
Central battle: Led by Jasper Tudor, around 1500 men (8 bases).
1 Men-at-arms base, 2 'retinue' archer bases, 2 militia archer bases, 3 militia archer bases
Mostly Pembroke militia, with the retainers being from Jasper's personal retinue. He is described as being an adventurer, so maybe i'll swap a militia base for a base of retainers.

Right battle: Led by Owen Tudor, around 1250 men (7 bases).
1 Men-at-arms base, 1 mounted men-at-arms or pricklers base (on the flank), 1 'retinue' archer base, 2 militia archer bases, 2 militia bases
Again, mostly militia with some cavalry on the flank (not sure if they existed but why not?)

Left battle: Led by Ormond, around 1250 men (7 bases).
1 Men-at-arms base, 1 Irish light horse base, 1/2 Irish foot bases, 1 'retinue' archer base, 2 or 3 mercenary crossbowmen bases.
Ormond has his personal retinue with him, English is style with perhaps a few gallowglaich thrown into his men-at-arms. The Irish foot are tricky; many Irish still fought as kerns with darts and javelins, but mentions of polearms, swords, shields and bows are mentioned in later documents. So these will be a mix of men armed with some javelins but ready to get stuck in with their melee weapons.
The mercenaries are armed with crossbows, both the Bretons and the French.


The Yorkists
Central battle: Led by Edward, around 2000 men (10 bases).
2 men-at-arms bases, 2 'retainer' archer bases, 1 'retinue billmen' base, 2 militia archer bases, 2 militia bases, 1 mounted men-at-arms/prickler base (reserve)

Right battle: Led by ?, around 1500 men (8 bases).
1 men-at-arms base,2 'retinue' archer bases, 2 militia archer bases, 3 militia bases

Left battle: Led by ?, around 1500 men (8 bases).
1 men-at-arms base, 1 'retinue' archer base, 2 militia archer bases, 3 militia bases, 1 mounted men-at-arms/prickler base (reserve)

5 or 6 men to a base so around 270 in total and prone to change!
Any suggestions are welcome concerning ratios, leaders, bla bla bla...
Right, time to research coats of arms.

[Arlequín]

Seems very reasonable. 

William Herbert and Walter Devereux are suggestions for your Yorkists, both received substantial rewards after Towton, so must have done something besides just turning up on the day. I'm certain they would have been in Edward's force at Mortimer's Cross.

John Stafford, Humphrey Stafford and of course Lord Audley are other options, but were all very recent converts to the Yorkists, although they would have been with Edward from the start of the campaign and possibly called their men from Dorset and Wiltshire to meet with them at Gloucester. In terms of Social standing, these three ranked above the first two, so a command a piece may have been expected.   

[max]

William Hastings was also at Mortimer's Cross, so he's another choice.
I currently thinking it over, do you know anything more about John Stafford as i've got nothing on him yet.

[Arlequín]

Yes, Hastings is another option, but he was not then as prominent as he would later become, like Devereux and Herbert.

John Stafford was the youngest son of the Duke of Buckingham who died at Northampton and uncle to (and possibly had wardship over) the Buckingham who rebelled in 1483. John Stafford later became Earl of Wiltshire. Humphrey was distantly related to the family and had a lot of land in Dorset, eventually becoming Earl of Devon.

*Edit*

While I think on, if there is anybody who fought for the Yorkists at Towton, who had land in the South West and Welsh Marches, odds are that they were in Edward's army at Mortimer's cross too. His force was the only Yorkist force which was recruited out that way before the battle.

We also had a thread on here about the Irish, it's worth looking up!

[max]

After much musing, i've finally decided on who will command the left and right wings of Edwards army.

Left, Sir William Herbert, lord of Raglan. Right, John Stafford.

I chose Sir William because he was one of the older men present (about 38) and, since he later became the earl of Pembroke i thought he should be leader the fight against the current holder of that title.
As for John Stafford, he later became earl of Wiltshire so i thought he should fight against Ormond, who was also the lord of Wiltshire at the time of battle.
I decided against William Hastings because at the time he was a retainer under Edward (and before under Richard of York) so would probably be with Edward. Humphrey Stafford was a retainer for John at that time, so will be with him. There was also a certain John Grey of Wilton, but i could find hardly anything on him (a possible coat of arms though) but his father was the head of the family so i assumed he was lower on the social ladder at the battle.

As for livery/coats of arms, i found some pictures of heraldric devises at Raglan Castle that might be useful, and the shield at the bottom of the post. So perhaps blue and red (like Edward, oddly enough)?
John Stafford will use the Stafford knot on black and red, quite handy as i've already got some  




As for the Lancastrian colours, i found the Butler's coat of arms, blue and yellow, so perhaps his Anglo-Irish force will be wearing that. The mercenaries will, of course, be a ragged, dirty bunch of cut throats with little uniform, perhaps some old coats or coloured hose of when they served the French king.

For the Tudors, it is tempting to do them green and white, but i've got no solid evidence on their coats of arms. Any ideas?

Right, time to make a start!

[Arlequín]

Google-fu weak, in this one is; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owen_Tudor, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasper_Tudor 

I suspect that Owen, who didn't actually become a banneret until just before Mortimer's cross, may have led troops in Henry VI's blue and white livery, as a Royal official, or the Prince of Wales's black and red.

The green and white Tudor livery is said to be that of Jasper's brother, Edmund Earl of Richmond, father of the future Henry VII... but I have never come across one for Jasper, who is the more commonly encountered one (by virtue of his living past 1456). So I would go for the green and white.

Edward Earl of March... red and blue? I might re-think that one at this time myself.

[max]

Edward Earl of March... red and blue? I might re-think that one at this time myself.

Not 100% sure what you mean. Are you suggesting Edward didn't use the red and blue until later on?

Now that you mention it though, maybe he wasn't using them? Since he was raising troops for his father, perhaps he used the blue and white of RoY?
Same goes for Owen Tudor, as since he was raising troops for the king, he issued them his livery.

[Arlequín]

Yep... maybe. The most common colours attributed to him are blue and murray. I'm not sure where the red and blue came from, but that has also been mentioned here and there and may have been the colours he later adopted as king... or they meant 'murray', I really don't know. Having said that he started off with a white lion and the 'red and blue' standard features a gold crowned one.

I can see the men he raised wearing his father's livery at Mortimer's Cross perhaps, but whether he was still using blue and white at that point might be worth considering, seeing as his main rivals; the King and Somerset, also used those colours? He may have been using another livery himself, who knows?

As Edward, George and Richard (and even Edmund according to one source ... a bit dubious imo) are also reputed to have used blue and murray, with different badges, I can't help wondering if it was some York family thing that went past Edward and back to his father?   

For me the safe bet is blue and murray for Edward, along with white lion and white roses... If we were talking Tewkesbury, I'd say red and blue, gold lion and gold suns. I can't provide any evidence either way though, so it's up to you.

[max]

I think i'll go for Edward wearing his own colours of blue and murray, but some of the troops he was raised will be in the blue and white of Richard of York. His own household troops will be dressed in the livery of their lord, whereas the other 'little people' identify more with Richard's colours.

For Owen, i'll use the king's colours, or the prince of Wales, whatever i feel like.

I'll just do something and see what happens!

[Arlequín]

That all makes sense to me and it will break up the masses too.