High Medieval skirmish rules?

[Mick_in_Switzerland]

Re GW Lord of the Rings Strategy Battle Game Rules

"Since we are talking about LOTR skirmish, Is there any difference between the old rules and the new "Hobbit" rules"

There are several versions of the GW LOTR SBG rules.  

The three early versions came out with the films and were version 1, version 2 and version 3.

Essentially the first two versions  (Fellowship of the Ring, The Two Towers) are now obsolete.

By the third book (The Return of the King), the rules for infantry, cavalry, heroes etc were all fully developed. Siege rules and special rules for Mammukil etc were added in various suppliments.  

The fourth and fifth books (Mines of Moria and the big Blue book) have almost identical core rules to the Return of the King rulebook.  There are some small tweeks to points values of some characters and the special rules are all included.

The new Hobbit rulebooks are in effect six and seven (An Unexpected Journey and Escape from Goblin Town).  I have the Goblin Town set but have only played it once.  As far as I can tell, they are the essentialy the same core rules but a few minor tweeks to match the new films.

You can buy the older books on Ebay quite cheaply.  

In summary any of the LOTR rulebooks from Return of the King onwards will be OK.

Regards

Mick

[Gibby]

Really?   

Because i've got and played all of them and they look pretty much like the same rules to me...

Sure each of these have slightly different elements, levels of complexity and source-related tweaks, but they're all basically 'Warhammer Skirmish' derivatives.

The turns work differently, stats are a different format and combat is worked out totally different. They are as different as any two sets of rules really.

[Luddite]

The turns work differently, stats are a different format and combat is worked out totally different. They are as different as any two sets of rules really.

I think i might be living in a parallel universe then.  Since i have the GW Lord f the Rings rulebook (actually 2 versions, a softback and a later hardback) and they bear a remarkable resemblance to Mordheim, Nec, LotOW, Gladiator, GW Skirmish, etc.  I've played them all extensively.

The books i have are as similar as any rulesets could be.

Perhaps i hallucinated it all...

[Gibby]

I think i might be living in a parallel universe then.  Since i have the GW Lord f the Rings rulebook (actually 2 versions, a softback and a later hardback) and they bear a remarkable resemblance to Mordheim, Nec, LotOW, Gladiator, GW Skirmish, etc.  I've played them all extensively.

The books i have are as similar as any rulesets could be.

Perhaps i hallucinated it all...

Mordheim and Necromunda use the WFB/40k profiles, to hit and wound charts, full ''I go/you go'' turn sequences (LotR switches between players each phase). LotR uses opposed rolls for combat etc, has Hero and Might points, a player Initiative system etc. I also have them all. LotR was released way after Mordheim/Necromancer etc as a fully new game, the main mechanics of which are used as the foundation for the GW Historical games.

Not trying to argue I just can't see how they are the same rule systems. Reading Mordheim will not teach you how to play LotR.

[Momotaro]

LotOW and Gladiator use the LotR rules, so they will be pretty similar.

The LotR rules are a stripped-down and tidied up version of Mordheim and Necromunda.

Differences:

1) The turn sequence in LotR is different - it's a lot less IGO-UGO than the older games.  Both sides move (in order of initiative), then both sides shoot, then HTH is worked out;
2) The to hit roll is based on a simple D6 roll, with the Fight (WS) skill acting as a tiebreaker - simpler than Mordheim and Necromunda's to-hit charts;
3) The wound chart and in LotR combines both armour and toughness (I once worked it out compared to other GW games, and the stats come out pretty similar IIRC);
4) Courage is actually exactly the same in all games, you just roll to beat a threshold in LotR to keep everything "roll high";
5) Far fewer special abilities and no campaign and character advancement rules in LotR;
6) More of an emphasis on "ganging-up" in LotR - the rules for basic combat are much simpler (some people say boring) , and the emphasis is on outnumbering an opponent, forming second lines of spears and clustering round banners;
7) LotR has three kinds of hero points.  These can give bonuses to various rolls, help oppose magic, and heroes can help troops with courage rolls.

I'd say the emphasis on Mordheim and Necromunda is on following the progress of a small gang of less than a dozen minis through their career, with more details in combat and individual abilities.  LotR is about a small army clustering around heroes.  It works for very small forces, but is intended to play with up to 50+ minis ona  side.  I reckon LotR captues the feel of a Dark Ages style battle nicely.

They systems are recognisably very similar, but do play differently IMHO.

[Nick2729]

Will I need the supplements or will the core rule book have everything I need?

Ta

Nick

[commissarmoody]

Cool, I have the regular LOTR strategy battle game, sitting on my shelf now, and I have yet to use it. Might have to remedy that.

[max]

Will I need the supplements or will the core rule book have everything I need?

Ta

Nick

The core rulebook has everything, including some stats for various lord of the rings characters that could be adapted for historical characters.

[tomek917]

LOTR SBG was actually my first miniatures wargame that I actually played (painted and collected WFB and 40K for a couple of years before that, but never played) so I have played it a few times, but it was ages ago, I think I stopped soon after the third book came out.

I always played with quite small forces but how large armies can you have? Does it slow down much when you have 50+ miniatures? I imagine the moving phase would take quite long...

[Momotaro]

Things like rolling morale individually can be a pain in larger battles.  To be honest, movement isn't so bad, at least to begin with - you tend to be moving figures in something like a unit anyway, to take advantage of banner, hero and spear rules.  Things do tend to fall apart once figures start getting pushed back in combat, and start threading through gaps in lines.

If you can track it down, the Alamo supplement for Legends of the Old West has rules for using units in your game.  Basically, it's:

1)  figures move as a unit;
2)  a single courage check when one is required for any member of the unit, and results apply to all.  You may use the Courage of a Hero, if present;
3)  all figures hit on a 4+ but the highset Fight models go first. 

It's a much cleaner system (and much less flawed than War of the Ring IMHO).

[Luddite]

In fact, of all the iterations of Warhammer Skirmish, i'd recommend Legends of the Old West as perhaps the 'cleanest' of them.

[katie]

"I always played with quite small forces but how large armies can you have? Does it slow down much when you have 50+ miniatures? I imagine the moving phase would take quite long..."

We've played LotOW ACW games with 30-40 figures a side (split into 3-4 units per side, each player has 1-2 units).

Actually the move phase doesn't take that long provided people aren't taking the piss; "OK, so this group are moving up to the fenceline, they should all make it, right?" "Sure". And that's a dozen figures done.

It's the *firing* phase that's slow. "Right, so there's 5 recruits, a sergeant and 7 soldiers firing, two of them have a wall in the way and the others have a fence.. and they're shooting at a unit with 3 different grit values.."

I've started moving back to not mixing recruits/soldiers within units to try and cut down on the combinations.

I was also looking at having some sets of "in the way" dice made (different colours for different obstacles with wall/fence/tree type outline symbols on them), so that each figure can shoot with just one handful of dice. (white-to-hit, various in-the-ways, red-to-wound.. roll them at all at once)

The medieval stuff I've not really done anything very large with yet to find the problems...

[tomek917]

It's a much cleaner system (and much less flawed than War of the Ring IMHO).

I managed to track down a set of the Alamo rules and they look really good, I will definitely give them a try!

@katie I see the problem, that's a lot of dice to keep track of. If you are going to play WOTR with them you'll have to keep track of archers, billmen and knights in the same unit, perhaps even more.

Anyway, thank's for the answers and sorry Nick2729 for hijacking your thread!

[Hildred Castaigne]

These rules were suggested earlier on, but no link was provided.

Here is Legends of the Feudal Times from fellow LAFer, Sgt. Perry.
http://perrysheroes.free.fr/IMG/pdf/LotFT_Rules.pdf

The LotOW system has been adapted to the High Middle Ages, with a campaign system to boot.
A very neat job!