Sub-Roman Church Project Part 6 Updated 11/08 - Completed at last!

[Mitch K]

Well, I've managed to get the roof on and sort out my apse. And very painful it was too, I can assure you. Titter ye not, I say!

Anyway, here it is. Description of the work here:
http://mitchwargaming.blogspot.co.uk/2013/06/something-little-more-complicated-sub.html

and a view of the result here:

[Sixmilletoe]

Loving it Got a thing for churches at the moment!

[former user]

ceramic tiles on sub-roman buildings?  reused roman ones, if any
I'd rather go for shingles or thatching
Not even the romans used ceramic tiles for every building in the provinces.

but straight tiles on a conical roof? I don't think so.....

[Malamute]

ceramic tiles on sub-roman buildings?  reused roman ones, if any
I'd rather go for shingles or thatching
Not even the romans used ceramic tiles for every building in the provinces.

but straight tiles on a conical roof? I don't think so.....

Good job it's not your building then.

Looking great so far Mitch, looking forward to seeing it finished.

[former user]

oh, so helping to improve modelling by pointing out possible historical flaws in a historical board is not allowed any more?

I rest my case, sorry to bother you

Mod, please delete my post

[Mitch K]

ceramic tiles on sub-roman buildings?  reused roman ones, if any
I'd rather go for shingles or thatching
Not even the romans used ceramic tiles for every building in the provinces.

but straight tiles on a conical roof? I don't think so.....

So if it was built during the Roman era, and survived into the immediate post Roman era, it wouldn't have been built according to Roman construction practice? Please explain how an extant building surviving beyond its immediate construction era is a "historical flaw", because I confess I am struggling with this.

As for flat tiles, well, you're right. I built a real roof like this many years ago, and it was a monumental ballache. And that was with curved tiles, cut to fit. If you can point me to curved tiles in scale, I'll buy some. Having had a very good look around, I came up empty, so your suggestions would be very welcome, I'm sure, not just to me but to others building curved roof structures for any era.

[former user]

maybe I have misunderstood Your building

if it is meant to be a roman building in continuous use, I would assume that a possible ceramic tiling would have been gradually replaced with used bricks from other buildings until they ran out. If there was a brick production centere after the retreat of the roman administration, I would like to know about it (seriously, I can't imagine that but I don't know everything about roman archaeology).
Anyway, if You want to research the topic of roman brick-making, there are books about it.
In short, no brick production, no tiles.
Plus, ceramic tiles were very expensive and used for representative buildings in the far provinces (and in Italy too). Let's assume that a basilical type building was reused or freshly built for the rather newly instated christian religion and it was important enough to be covered with ceramic tiles - all not improbable. But the roof tiles had to run out after 20-30 years. So one had to revert to local solutions that were easier implemented in order to guarantee dry praying. thatching and shingles - not only did they not fall out of use during the roman period, but the saxons knew them too (as the rest of the world for that matter). As to curved tiles, these were always special ones produced to fit, so even more difficult to replace.

For Your building, I personally would recommend to represent the transitional state by using a ceramic straight tiled roof (important building, reuse of standardized tiles from other ones etc), but another cover for the apse or outlying buildings (not roman any more).
BTW, I recently attended a lecture about a greek style cult site in 5thC BC Sicily where the ceramic tile roof was dismantled for reuse before the whole structure was ritually destroyed (crushed ritual pottery etc)

As to model roofing, I don't know of any available curved tiles for modelling, apart from reusing roofs of other model buildings - btw, custom curved roof tiles and bricks are a pretty big pain in the ass nowadays too and rather expensive

And I would like to know how You managed to cut to fit curved tiles - I draw my hat to that one!!

[Malamute]

oh, so helping to improve modelling by pointing out possible historical flaws in a historical board is not allowed any more?

I rest my case, sorry to bother you

Mod, please delete my post

Alternatively you could have commented on the quality of the build, which is more in the spirit of The LAF.

[Mitch K]

maybe I have misunderstood Your building

if it is meant to be a roman building in continuous use, I would assume that a possible ceramic tiling would have been gradually replaced with used bricks from other buildings until they ran out. If there was a brick production centere after the retreat of the roman administration, I would like to know about it (seriously, I can't imagine that but I don't know everything about roman archaeology).
Anyway, if You want to research the topic of roman brick-making, there are books about it.
In short, no brick production, no tiles.
Plus, ceramic tiles were very expensive and used for representative buildings in the far provinces (and in Italy too). Let's assume that a basilical type building was reused or freshly built for the rather newly instated christian religion and it was important enough to be covered with ceramic tiles - all not improbable. But the roof tiles had to run out after 20-30 years. So one had to revert to local solutions that were easier implemented in order to guarantee dry praying. thatching and shingles - not only did they not fall out of use during the roman period, but the saxons knew them too (as the rest of the world for that matter). As to curved tiles, these were always special ones produced to fit, so even more difficult to replace.

For Your building, I personally would recommend to represent the transitional state by using a ceramic straight tiled roof (important building, reuse of standardized tiles from other ones etc), but another cover for the apse or outlying buildings (not roman any more).
BTW, I recently attended a lecture about a greek style cult site in 5thC BC Sicily where the ceramic tile roof was dismantled for reuse before the whole structure was ritually destroyed (crushed ritual pottery etc)

As to model roofing, I don't know of any available curved tiles for modelling, apart from reusing roofs of other model buildings - btw, custom curved roof tiles and bricks are a pretty big pain in the ass nowadays too and rather expensive

And I would like to know how You managed to cut to fit curved tiles - I draw my hat to that one!!

former user, it's too far along with the build to undertake major changes now - adding the apse post-facto was bad enough.

Vis a vis brick production, no there is no evidence of it continuing post the Roman retreat, but we don't know exactly when production stopped. I think it would be a brave person who would put a precise date on it. Brick and tile buildings, with maintenance (not necessarily replacement materials, just nails and repointing) can, and have, lasted for centuries. Why is such a building surviving a few decades so totally improbable in your view? I can see few problems with a building surviving from AD410 to (say) AD440-450, provided it was occupied throughout.

If its that big an issue, the horrible, higgledy-piggledy tiling on the apse represents an amateurish repair, re-installing the original tiles

As for modern curved tiles(well, 25-odd years ago!) yes they are a monumental pain! The main thing seemed to be that the roof has to be designed around the tiles, rather than vice-versa. You CAN cut a taper, re-drill and nail to build gentle curves, but it takes a LOT of cuts. Ask me how I know...

Anyway, you points are taken - they might be useful to anyone looking at my build plan and taking it further.

[former user]

there is no big issue at all
sometimes issues are pumped up artificially 
I hadn't thought about that aspect: 

the horrible, higgledy-piggledy tiling on the apse represents an amateurish repair, re-installing the original tiles

I wanted to offer a bit of advice about styles not being 100% pure always
will be following Your nice building closely 

[mikedemana]

Looking great! One thing...your website skips "Part 3". Was there a part 3, or just a misnumbering?

Mike Demana

[Mitch K]

Looking great! One thing...your website skips "Part 3". Was there a part 3, or just a misnumbering?

Mike Demana

Mike, there's definitely a part 3. Posted on 7th of June, but I did go and check in case I'd screwed up the numbering in a fit of the gibbers!

[Mitch K]

Part 5 is now published, showing the finished roof, doors added etc. You could get away with using it like this, but the interior needs doing. On the final stretch now.

http://mitchwargaming.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/something-little-more-complicated-sub.html

Oh, and in keeping with all of the smut and innuendo regarding apses, here's a lovely shot of it:

 

[TWD]

That's looking very good now.
I do have a little tile envy I confess.

[Mitch K]

Tom, the Wills tile sheets are dead easy to work with, on the flat at least

Have a play around with some.