Cheka

[Ignatieff]

Were the Cheka any good in battle?  Most army lists have them as better than average troops, however when you read FM Bailey's account of ex circus clowns and lavatory assistants being the type of folk they recruited, and how dumb they seemed, it doesn't stack up, even allowing for the authors possible bias. Discuss. 

[marianas_gamer]

Steve,
P.S. Navaroff would agree with your take on this (Hunted Through Asia) but from his story it appears that they and their allies were often the only ones armed (or they could mobilize other armed clowns) and they certainly had the nastiness to back up whatever they wanted to push through.  I also really like his take on the Central Asian understanding (?) of Marxist ideology and revolution.
Lon

[Ignatieff]

Thanks Lon. Just re-reading (for the nth time) Hopkirks 'setting the east ablaze' whilst holed up in our Karakol hotel room). Brilliant stuff (as always). I'm thinking of doing a scenario book based in all the actions mentioned: malleaon, bailey in Tashkent, etc)

[Mark Plant]

I've done a bit of tracking on this, and have concluded:

1) that the Cheka fought internal enemies almost exclusively. Hardly surprising considering the scope of the organisation, but people tend to think of WWII with the NKVD divisions and extrapolate wildly. Mostly they were garrison or rear area guards, not involved in fighting. When they fought it was Greens, not Whites.

2) there were no separate "Cheka" armed forces. There were Red Army divisions assigned to their control, but not trained or otherwise equipped differently from ordinary forces. The only time I know that a decent sized body was composed of Cheka proper was assaulting Kronstadt. (Even then that was a hastily composed body, not a standard force, and near a major city not a front line.)

3) their morale and training were poor, since fighting internal enemies (often peasants like themselves) did not really do it for the rank and file. I have several references to the Cheka forces being poor, but none from the time that make them any good.

The elite of the late civil war is Kursanty -- officer cadets.

[Ignatieff]

Thanks Mark. Confirms my suspicions. The conversation moves on therefore to the Kursanty. Can you recommend any light reading?

[Mark Plant]

No, sorry. Not on Kursanty.

Hopefully Cuprum will be along soon.

[cuprum]

Really elite and well-armed troops of the Cheka - is a myth. Almost myth. Such units nevertheless occasionally arise - when the Reds were forced to retreat and leave the city. Cheka departments reshape into regular military units. But there is no special status they had not.

There were military units subordinated to the Cheka:

- Corps forces Cheka (VOHR - Internal Troops of the Republic or the VNUS - Forces Internal Service) - these auxiliary troops carried out maintenance operations carried out by the Cheka: the fight against banditry, arrests, ambushes, protecting government institutions, values of national importance and industrial facilities external the protection the places of detention. These forces do not represent something special.

- Convoy guards Republic. Formally subordinate to the Commissariat of Justice. Were protecting the places of detention and escorting prisoners.

- Troops CHON. This is part of the territorial militia, which were created from the Communists and their sympathizers workers. Poorly trained and armed but highly motivated.

The cadets of military schools - are the real elite of the Bolsheviks. In school red commanders are taking better communist young people they were trained by the excellent teachers who mostly have taught at military schools in the Imperial period, as well as former senior officers of the Imperial Army.
Of course, the future Red Officers were sent into battle only in exceptional cases. Of the cadets formed separate military units that after completion of the tasks returned to further trained.

Cadets were often as the head covering - field cap (pilotka).
As well often cadets wearing of the ceremonial uniform of the Imperial military school (if school has been formed on the basis of Imperial military school)

Theme on my forum about military educational institutions of the Red Army - the military schools and academies:

http://siberia-miniatures.ru/forum/showthread.php?fid=12&tid=103&block=0

[Ignatieff]

Cool!  Trying to read all this on a mobile phone in Kyrgyzstan, so can't make sense of it completely.  Two questions:

1. The illustration near the start. Is the guy with the red cap an officer or just a cadet. And did all cadets wear the red cap?

2. Who are those stylish fellows in the Uhlan czapkas?

Thanks Cuprum. Superb as always

Steve

[former user]

if I may join in the query please:

I would like to hear from the specialists, please, whether I could use early war scots with Glengarry to substitute for the said cadet soldiers? it looks quite close to me and since there are no other miniatures available....

one of the Ospreys on the topic shows them with green pants and Pilotka.
I thought in the resourceless RCW british uniform shouldn't be such a problem?

here is a picture I found

[H.M.Stanley]

Following this with interest ...

I was about to ask about suitable figures for Officer Cadets

[cuprum]

The guy in the red cap - are students of the Academy of the Red Army. These guys would not have decided to send to the front as an elite infantry. It has almost been officers in the rank of colonel  

Ceremonial Ulan uniform - wearing cadets of Tver Cavalry School. This is the uniform of the Imperial Cavalry School of Tver, but without the shoulder straps and the replacement of the tsarist symbols of the Soviet.

Figures infantry cadets may well be done by using the red infantry Copplestone. You only need to replace the head on the head in his field cap  from any figures on the Soviet infantry WWII.

former user - in your photo Soviet infantry of the Second World War.

[former user]

THX - not actually answering my question...

does anyone make spare pilotka heads? because one can buy spare glengarry heads, which are the mother of pilotka 

- in your photo Soviet infantry of the Second World War.

what is the difference?
the boots?