Common weapons?

[Arlequín]

Then what use is a gun, or any weapon?

Not too much use at all I would expect, other than a means of making an escape route, or buying you some brief amount of time. With even the lightest weapon, using it for prolonged periods is tiring and against an enemy who never gets disheartened, or ever needs a respite, or sleep, themselves. A stand up fight is doomed to failure. Kill as many as you like and they will keep coming... forever.

Wearing protection is both tiring and can slow you down, depending on how much you are wearing. Even the lightest materials, like stab vests are a pain to wear constantly. Making a killing ground is a good call, except how are you going to do that noiselessly? It's not like the zombies are going to wait for an invitation, or even come from the direction you prefer. Fencing yourself in also has its problems.

Ordinary people even crazy ones are a different story though. 

[zizi666]

Then what use is a gun, or any weapon? Other than a fully fueled tank or something? A spear is the best multi purpose hand to hand weapon.  Combined with a shield and small group of trusted comrades it really is a powerful defensive tactic. Why do you think it was so widely used before gun powder? Its also versatile in many survival situations. You can use it as a lever, walking stick, splint, impromptu tent pole. Remove the blade as a knife, use it as a concussive weapon etc etc.

All valid points to which I agree, but I was referring solely to your statement about the horde.

And anyway, you are saying I dont know about a mindless shamblind horde: I have been to more than 1 mosh pit and festival you know!

  I did my share of pogo at EMB concerts, but lately I keep to guarding the eyeglasses of those friends that enjoy venturing between barechested, sweating fatties 

[FATROC]

The problem with the spear is that it IS a hand to hand weapon. You have to be very close to use it. If the spear gets stuck in a zombie, or the weight of a zombie or two snaps the spear shaft, you are dinner!    A fire arm gives you stand off range, which will allow you to shoot and move. Hand to hand should be your last option, not your first. Plus, you may have to deal with well armed human predators as well. When the crap hits the fan, I want all the advantages that I can get.

[Arlequín]

...but lately I keep to guarding the eyeglasses of those friends that enjoy venturing between barechested, sweating fatties 

There was I thinking you Gentenaars were quite reserved and conservative about such things. 

[Patrice]

Fascinating thread 

[FATROC]

I have to concur. A scoped .22 rifle with a silencer would be a nasty combo. Firing from the right vantage point, you could pile up mounds of zeds!

[superflytnt]

22. Papoose for the win!

[Arlequín]

Good points horrifically put... the veneer of civilisation is a very thin one. Just the rumour of a petrol tanker driver strike had people here fighting each other on the forecourts, imagine what your local supermarket will be like.

To be honest, by and large, some of the vulnerable will always be looked out for. Pregnant and nursing mothers, and children, get special treatment on base instinct, whereas the whiney, the overweight, the sick, or the unfit, would get far less consideration.

One thing I always liked about the ATZ rules, was that you could predict the behaviour of the zombies far easier than you could the other humans you met.

[SBRPearce]

Just to add some data from my Inside Source (my brother has just finished 27 years as an officer in the Army Reserve & state National Guard):

There are rifles stored at the local NG armories, but there's no ammunition at these locations. If a unit is going to "fire for qualification", the ammo is stored at the (usually distant) range facility, and is issued and taken back specifically for that day's training. In an actual shooting situation, there are organizational procedures that have to be followed to get the men, the weapons, and the ammo all to the right place at the right time.

These are subject to breakdown in a crisis... so you could have an interesting scenario where the characters are trying to defend an armory which is, actually, practically defenseless...

(OTOH, in the U.S., an outdoorsman's store or your local WalMart can be a source of .223 ammo, which fits the M4 carbine perfectly. One group to secure the weapons, one group to sally forth for ammo, and hope neither one is overwhelmed before they can meet back up?)

[Patrice]

Scurv you're probably right about the more chaotic and individualist groups, but not those which could last longer: when the stronger individuals have got rid of the weaker members, they will start fighting against each other.

More organised groups will probably consider that it's not proper behaviour and a bad idea of survival, and you can expect a fight between them and "some morally bankrupt people" who will want to kill children.

The mother is more expendable than anyone else and too much of a burden.

I think you are wrong there. All tribal groups living in the wild have always considered that women are a more valuable property than goats.

[superflytnt]

Scurv you're probably right about the more chaotic and individualist groups, but not those which could last longer: when the stronger individuals have got rid of the weaker members, they will start fighting against each other.

More organised groups will probably consider that it's not proper behaviour and a bad idea of survival, and you can expect a fight between them and "some morally bankrupt people" who will want to kill children.
I think you are wrong there. All tribal groups living in the wild have always considered that women are a more valuable property than goats.

Softer, more succulent meat, I imagine.

[Elk101]

The more I think about it, the more I think other survivors will still be the apex predator when it comes to killing other folk after the initial wave of infection. Unless its transmitted by animals also then the humble rat is king of the heap.

Also if the zombies are sprinters not shamblers then I dont think anyone will be left anyway. I for one are not up for all the running and the weight of an average adult hitting you when it feels no pain at full sprint would knock the sails out of you. Unless you are toting some serious ranged kill-o-death meeting more than 2 of them at once and you are dead as dillinger. The first one would knock you on your arse possibly with a broken bone or 2 and the others pile on pinning you down.

I tend to agree with your threat perception Scurv. Zombies might be merciless killers but not because any thought has gone into it. People on the other hand........

You're also right about getting hit by an adult running at full tilt. I once had to stop on a run suddenly and the guy running behind me didn't notice in time and ran straight into me. He fell backwards and I got knocked clean over a car bonnet (hood) landing on my head and right shoulder about 3m from the original impact. Imagine two or more of these guys hitting you and not feeling the impact. Before you got up you'd be torn apart by the runners behind the first lot.

[workerBee]

If zombies are "mindless" then why would they cooperate and not compete against each other for the food?

Depends a lot on the assumptions that go into what "drives" a zombie and what level of intelligence exists.  A "smart zombie" is just a a individualist survivor who has dropped any sense of civilized behavior and is acting on base behavior.

I think groups will exist/coalesce and they will find that "jury trials" for zombies/cannibals/threat individuals (almost wrote "terrorist" which makes me want to pursue that line of thought later,) will consist of 1) looks like/acts like  <fill in the blank> 2) Kill it.

I think such a situation would make people assess the danger of of individuals who put religion/nationality/language/ethnicity/"race"/politics ahead of survival as also not acceptable.  While initially there will be lots of distrust of others, the groups who quickly overcome their foibles and focus on surviving as a group (and adding individuals to that group who bring skills needed - even if only scut work) will quickly achieve a synergy of survival.  The fanatic individualist will run the risk of needing to sleep sometime or needing someone to watch their back and not having that resource would be eventually fatal.

15 years of nursing (as the male - and house "float" - on night shift in a major urban hospital I got the additional duty of subduing drunks. drugged (post surgery or street drugs) individuals, psych patients who where in another reality, and some "visitors" of hostile intent; only once with the arrival of the police before the dust settled,) and too many years working for the DOD/IC dealing with some of the more brutish natural and man made crises has given me a somewhat cynical/realistic view of human nature but I also saw that given the right (or enough) incentive some people (what I would call "key" people) can and will rise to the occasion.  The key factor in how the situation develops (whether Tsunami or Rwanda style events) is how many people arise, how early in the crisis they arise, and how quickly a group coalesces around those people.  Culture is a "shaper" of such processes but no culture is incapable of success or guaranteed to be successful.

Of course once a group coalesces it is capable of being controlled by a forceful/charismatic leader unless other leaders/cultural factors limit the potential abuses.  But that is a longer term issue (first hours/days/weeks) than what we are talking about in my mind.

Gracias,

Glenn

[superflytnt]

Two words represent my feeling on people's ability to not go bat-shit crazy amidst a crisis: HURRICANE KATRINA.

If the government help didn't show up when it did, albeit very late, well, just imagine what chaos and violence would've erupted. Women wanting milk for their children, men being henpecked to "DO SOMETHING" by their wives, and of course, the "survival instinct" would ensure that while the best of men would rise above, the common, scavenging peoples would take what they needed without compunctions of taking from others.

[FATROC]

Of course the polar opposite of "Katrina" is the response of the people of Joplin after the tornado. They didn't wait for someone else to help, the people pulled together and helped each other. I think you will have different responses in different locations. Some areas, society will totally collapse, and in others, secure enclaves may emerge. But a lot of ugliness probably will transpire.