IHMN - Points balance

[cptkremmen]

Played 2nd game tonight, Thule again was slaughtered by Scotland yard. Everyone, especially the scotland yard players thought the scotland yard figures were too cheap.

A bobby costs 11 points and has 2 useful weapons, shooting and close combat. Not too easy to kill and at only 11 points cheap as chips. Even the carbine carrying special branch are only 13 points.

A Thule Jager has now gone up to 39 points for which you get a good chap, but he is only one guy. The todtruppen option is useful BUT you have to be near an arc generator and the doctor for example costs 39 points and is almost useless. Likewise until the todtruppen comes into play the Thule player is massively down on numbers.

todays game has 14 scotland yard figures including the basic set and 3 extra bobbies, plus the ironclad armoured car.
Thule had the basic set plus one extra Jager which means 8 figures max on the table at any one time.

The Thule Jagers are good shots and good in hand to hand but can be killed and you don't get many.

We are thinking of replaying the game next week and basically downgrading the Scotland yard faction by removing the armoured car.

How have others found the points values to be?

I must stress that everyone enjoyed the game, just no one thought the sides were balanced.

[Dewbakuk]

Never had a problem with having the Jagers too far from an arc generator. Between the two of them in the list, you can have a massive section of the board covered. I've never seen the doctor achieve anything himself though....

We've played quite a lot of times and Thule has lost more games than they've won but not by a huge amount. Do you have lots of terrain? Thule have a big advantage in heavy terrain as their Jager have Marksman (assuming you're using the force supplied) which means they ignore cover modifiers but anyone shooting at them doesn't (unless they also have Marksman...). I'd actually say that this game needs fairly dense terrain anyway, even when fighting in the countryside. Trees, hedges, ditches etc will all help.

Don't forget the Terrifying ability from the Todtruppen, we do all the time and it can make a big difference in scenario games. Although it can be really annoying to charge someone and have them run away screaming when you want to eat their brains.

[cptkremmen]

Thule jagers do not have marksman or grenades unless you pay for it and they cost too much already!

[Dewbakuk]

The Jager in the 'box list' which comes with the sets have been given Marksman.

[cptkremmen]

Funny missed that.  Sure marksman was a paid upgrade.

learn something new all the time.

Yes we use cover a lot but at the moment we are keeping it simple and counting everything as -1 cover

[Smith]

The 'ready-made' lists, as Dewbakuk said, include Marksman, which is an optional upgrade for all Jagers in the rulebook list. However, all Jagers as standard come with the Bayonet Drill Talent, which allows them to use the military rifle & bayonet weapon option in close combat.

That weapon gives the Jagers a +3 FV, -1 Pluck melee weapon (on top of a +3" SV, 24", -1 Pluck ranged attack). Given the Constables have the All-Electric Truncheon (+1 FV, -1 Pluck) and a pistol (+1 SV, 9", +0 Pluck), on the weapons front alone, they're almost 3 times as weak as a Jager. Factor in the troop types' base characteristics, and while they share the same Pluck rating, the Jagers are twice as effective in both melee and ranged combat as a Constable.

Long point short – Jagers cost more because each one is far more lethal than a Constable. They're far better fighters (total FV/SV of +5 vs. +2), and can reach out and touch someone at nearly 3 times the range... and all that doesn't even begin to factor in the consideration that your enemy kills them, only to see them come back and keep fighting, this time as a 3+ Pluck, +3 FV badass with Numb, Terrifying (again, as Dewbakuk says - that's a real killer) and Antivenom, and club-like hands (+1 FV).

Naturally, this means you get fewer of them, and thus need to look after them – even more so if all cover only offers a -1 modifier! It's the difference between fielding a Terminator and an Imperial Guardsman in 40K. And then counting a brick wall and a bush as the same level of protection!

I'm not sure why you're costing them at 39 points, though. The errata specifically says: "Not a correction but, if we costs a Jδger he is 26 points and Tod-truppen is 39 points..." Unless I've missed something, that's intended to allow you to start the game with Tod-truppen (at 39 points each), rather than wait for your Jagers to die. So, for every two Jagers you're currently purchasing, you should actually have three.

I hope that goes some way towards fixing your problems with Thule – I think the points issue is really hurting you, and the implentation of the proper cover system will improve your models' survivability. Still, if you want a gang with more figures, Thule really isn't for you. Unless, of course, you have a play with the Company creation system and build a list that matches your models and your preferences.

[Eisenfaust]

I believe you're misreading the errata, Smith. I'm fairly certain I read Craig explain somewhere that he Jaeger at 26 points is if you want to take one without a revivifier, one who CANNOT become a Tod-truppen.

[Smith]

I copied that line from the errata document - further explanation, I grant, I may have missed.

Running a Jager through the points calculator gives 21 points – plus 5 more for the Revivifier (as per the Weird Science table) = 26 points. Doing likewise with the Tod-truppen yields 41 points, however (though the quoted score of 39 may factor in the special rules regarding how erratically Tod-truppen behave).

EDIT: I found this just now:

"For the Jδger/Tod-truppen combination you pay the higher of the two costs. The Jδger cost is there for completeness should one wish to deploy Jδgers without revivifiers."

So, fair enough, but I still think the maths is off!

In any case, a Constable costs 11 points, a Jager/Tod-truppen costs 39. Considering you essentially get two characters, both much tougher than a Constable, I reckon the points cost is about right (in terms of balance, if not actual calculation).

[cptkremmen]

Sorry guys but I can't find the list where Jagers get marksman for free?    it is clearly a payable upgrade in the rules.

What am i missing?

Andy

[Smith]

You're missing nothing – nowhere do Jagers get Marksman for free. It is always an option with an additional cost.

However, in the ready-made army list included in the Thule boxed set, the Jagers have been given that option, and the additional cost factored into the points total. I think your comment about "not getting marksman" was misinterpreted earlier, and that was raised as a counterpoint.

[cptkremmen]

Ta I was getting very confused.

So Jager tod truppen with marksmen = 44 points.  Bobby with pistol and truncheon is 11 points.  4 bobbies per Jager......

Of course if I was fighting the Ra guys with their cultists the would get 14 cultists for the cost of 1 jager.  I am doubtful 1 jager stands much chance against 4 bobbies or 14 cultists.

[Smith]

Well, yes and no.

A Jager plus Marksman may equal 4 bobbies, but when you consider that you're essentially getting 2 figures per Jager (thanks to the fact that they come back from the dead), the odds are much better – roughly, 2 bobbies per Jager and 2 per Tod-truppen.

If you let 4 bobbies (or 14 cultists) gang up on a single Jager, then, yes, he'll probably get his ass kicked. The same is true for most figures! Odds are, though, that those 4 bobbies will be whittled down by a Jager's superior shooting abilities before they get within pistol range or into hand-to-hand. Then, even if they beat the Jager, they still have to deal with a very tough Tod-truppen.

The points costs are not just straight-up "1x Figure X = 4x Figure Y" comparisons – they represent how tactically useful a figure is. You pay more for a more dangerous, capable character. This does mean that you can't play every faction the same way – Jagers need to avoid getting outnumbered – keep moving, use cover, pick off targets. Think of them as special forces snipers – sure, an SAS sniper will probably lose to 4 or 5 regular soldiers in a close-range firefight or a brawl, but if he keeps the fight on his terms, beyond the range of the enemy's weapons, he's one of the most lethal warriors known to man, and it won't be long before that 1:4 ratio drops... then you'll have a 44-point expert taking on one or two 11-point enemies – who has the advantage then?

...then he comes back as a zombie.

If you don't like playing with small, elite forces, then you really should consider trying another faction, or building one to suit how you want to play – that's why the Company Creation rules are in the book. Not every company appeals to every player – for example, while I love the concept and the figures, I'm not a fan of the "swarm" approach used by the Servants of Ra.

[cptkremmen]

I own both the scotland yard and Thule faction and am hapy to play wth either. I don't  mind cheap bobbies or expensive Jagers, what I am saying is that the forces are not remotely balanced. We had a 6 player game. 3 scotland yard and 3 Thule. At the end of the game 6 of the 6 players thought the points were wrong for the bobbies V Thule.

Andy

[Thorwin]

I don`t understand your problem. The Bobbies are cheap and you can field a mass of them.
The have crap stats and low equipment, but they are cheap.
The Jaeger for 39 points has better equip and has better stats and is more expensive.
The Clue is if you kill him , TATA a zombie arises that would cost 41 points.You get 67 points of miniatures for 39, if this is not the winner , you are playing the wrong game.Change the count , remove the fearless and give him fanatic and give Dr. Kobalt +2 SV and your opponent will add the next thread that Thule is OP.

You have never played Starcraft Zerg vs Protos?

[Dewbakuk]

14 Cultists will struggle to kill the Jager and will probably flee at the first sight of the Toddtruppen. Yes, weight of dice will help but the only games I've ever had cultists survive against Thule was when they've been out of sight doing scenario things. Their characters are another matter.